[font=Courier New]I am a fan of time travel fiction.
*****Spoiler alert *******













Where did the message "Save the cheelrleader, save the world" come from?

Here is the chronology, from our perspective.

At the end of episode 1.4, "Collision" Peter Petrelli and Dr Mohinder Suresh are on a subway. The subway freezes in time, everybody on board is frozen, except Peter. He looks around, hits the window at the end of the car, then Future Hiro appears, says "Peter Petrelli".

[Hiro's discription. He speaks perfect english, he has a little bit of hair under his lip, he is dressed as a ninja, all in black, with a katana on his back.]

Peter says, "How is this happening?"

Hiro says, "I'm sorry if I scared you. You look diffrent witout your scar." [That means, Peter gets a scar on his face, after the subway, but before he meets Hiro for the first time, from Hiro's point of view.]

Peter says "I don't know you buddy".

Hiro says "Not yet" [meaning that Peter and Hiro will meet in the future].
Hiro says "My name is Hiro Nakamura. I am from the future."[Since Hiro is from the future, we don't know how far in the future he is from, he has plenty of time to learn how to speak english.]
Hiro says "I have a message for you." end of episode 4 "Collision".

In episode 1.5 "Hiros" begins on the time frozen subway. Beginning narration by Mohinder.
The camera starts at the other end of the subway from Peter, the pan over the back of Hiro, and we see that on Hiro's Katana hilt is the symbol, the strand of RNA (we think).


Diffrent lines this time.

Hiro "Peter Peterelli".
Peter " What? Are you doing this?".
Hiro "You look diffrent witout THE scar." [Emphasis mine. Diffrent line from last episode.]
Peter "I don't know you."
Hiro "Not yet. My name is Hiro Nakamura."
Hiro "I am from the future, and I have a message for you."[Difrent wording from last episode.]
Hiro "I don't have much time. I am risking a rift just by coming here."

[Message begins.]
Hiro " The girl, YOU have to save her." [Meaning Peter]
Peter "What girl?"
Hiro "The cheerleader. This all could have been prevented."[Meaning that the cheerleader was not saved last time, it was not prevented, by actions that the cheerlader could have stopped or changed.]
Peter "Prevent what?"
Hiro "Everything."
Hiro "Listen to me. You must live." [Meaning that Peter died last time, is at risk of dying now, and only Peter could save the Cheerleader.]
Hiro "The painter, Isaac. Go to him. He will know. When I call you" [Meaning present day Hiro.] "you must tell me where we meet'[Not where we will meet, but where we meet, I guess from one of the paintings.]
Hiro "You don't know how many times how lost you felt, before it all started. This is what you have been waiting for.
Be the one we need."
Hiro walks away, toward the other end of the subway.
Peter says "Wait!"
Hiro yells "Save the cheerleader, save the world."

[Message ends]

Hiro dissapears, time starts again.

Meanwhile, Nathan Petrelli, older brother of Peter Petrelli, is being escorted out of the casino, he escaspes by flying away.

Peter tells Mohinder. Mohinder does not belive Peter.
Mohinder leaves.

On the Outskirts of Las Vegas, Nevada, present day Hiro and his friend are dumped out of a van, along with their luggage. They go into a diner. They get into a fight.

Present day Hiro says "Hang out with your internet stripper without me, if that's what you want."

Hiro's friend leaves.
Hiro is stiiting in a window booth in the diner.

Hiro loos out the diner window, he sees Nathan Petrelli come in for a landing, dressed only in his pajama bottoms.

Nathan Petrelli walks into the diner, he sits at the counter, gets coffee.
[Nathan is now wearing a T shirt, with the diners logo on it, "Fly by night diner. Right for a man who can fly.]
Hiro introduces himself to Nathan.
Hiro tells Nathan that Hiro saw Nathan fly.
Peter denys it.
Hiro tells Nathan about his ability.
Hiro "Teleport into the future. We are both special."
Nathan does not believe Hiro.
Hiro "I go to New York. I see future."
Hiro "Big bomb goes there. Bad for many people." Hiro makes nuke bomb sound.
Hiro " Don't worry. I stop it."
Hiro "I'm a Hero."
In the background, Nathan's car arrives.
Nathan "Gottta go." Walks away, to the car.
Then Nathan turns around, and asks Hiro
"In this future that yoiu see, you don't happen to know that I win the election, do you?"
Hiro "Yes, I know you. Nathan Petrelli. You win. Very big win."[That was in that version of history, where Nathan did not meet Hiro in his past. This future might be just a little bit diffrent.]
Hiro asks for ride back to Las Vegas from Nathan, Nathan does because of election news.


Meanwhile, Peter goes back to Isaac's studio.
Peter and Isaac argue.
Peter looks at Isaac's paintings.
Peter sees the cheerleader in a few paintings, including one in the auditorium.

Las Vegas, Nathan drops present day Hiro off at the casino.
Hiro says "Vote Petrelli!"
Nathan says "Early and often."
Hiro says "Up, up, and away."[Superman quote, the man who could fly.]

Back at Isaac's studio, Peter hangs up some of Isaac's paintings, the ones that take place at a high school.
Top painting, stuff falling on Peter, middle left, Hiro and his friend, under a Homecoming banner, with blood all over it.
Middle right, close up of the cheeleader, being scared of something, all across the bottom, wide view, auditorium, cheeleader cowering on stairs, big sihadow in foreground.


Peter "Wow, this is amazing. Look, it is telling a story, like a comic. This girl, she's running, and I ...". He looks at top painting "Is that me?"
Isaac "Why would I paint you?"
Peter "These two guys. I think that we are all trying to help her. The Cheerleader. Who is she?"
Isaac "I don't know."
Peter "So, what happens next, where is she?"
Peter sees the unfinsed painting.
Peter finishes the painting.

Back in Las Vegas, Hiro's friend returns for the car. Hiro is sitting in the car.
Hiro can't drive.

Hiro's friend says "I guess we call the artist again."[The artist being Isaac..]

Back in Isaac's studio, Peter has finished the unfinsed painting.
It is the cheerleader, with her head cut open, blood everywhere, her brain is missing.
It looks like the shadow of Sylar over the Cherleader.

Isaac says "We have to save her."

Isaac's phone rings.

Peter picks it up.
Hiro "Mr. Isaac? Isaac Mendez?"
Peter "Who Is this"
Hiro puts his cell phone to the ear of his friend and him
"Um, my Name is Hiro Nakamura."
Peter "My name is Peter Petrelli. I have a message for you."

episode 5 ends.




Now, where does the message "Save the cheerleader, save the world" come from?

Future Hiro tells present Peter.
Present peter tells present Hiro, who in an alternate future, came back and told Peter.
So, causualty has broken down. The effect has come before the cause. That is what time travel does.



Thank you.

not quite first off hiro and nathatn meet in the same way the change in the timeline future hiros messae wouldnt have affected present hiro yet also future hiro didnt give him a message he got from peter a long time ago he was just saying the key to stoping the world from what happens in future hiros time he must save the chearleader he is just in a hurry and he states the most important part of his message quick and simple svae the chearleader save the world there is no causality problem like in futurama where fry is his own granfather


also that was all quoted from memory wasnt it i think you might have some of that a little off

It's called a paradox. However, although I doubted that the writers would use the "alternate universe" or multiverse philosophy for the show, it appears that this is what they're doing. That, and it's the only way to avoid all paradoxes.

Oh, and...your forum handle = waaaaay too long (it's spacing stuff out too much).

the thing withthe save the cheerleader is that it sounds silly. Much like most of the heroes are experiencing trying to explain their powers to others. the fatc that it sounds ridiculous to them is a common theme the show has been displaying

Future Hiro came up with the message himself, gave it to present Peter, who'll give it to present Hiro, who'll never need to go back and give it.

Future Hiro has returned to a future. Going by the fact that he didn't actually move through real time in our time (and doing even this was risking a rift) I think he's gone back to his future. But it'd be a twist if he did turn up in our timeline instead.

ETA: Note, I'm also a time-travel fan, and know so many variations on time-travel mechanics it's silly.

Wow... I didn't pick up on the changes they made to that opening dialogue.

Good work.


Anyways, while not a time traveling buff myself they have to be going through the multiverse or w/e philosophy. Otherwise its all fated.

perfectly summed up, there isn't really a paradox at all...

but if hiro doesn't go back and give peter the message then clair will die but if she does in the fuure hero will come back and give a message to peter to save her but if shes alive hiro won't go back in time to give peter the message to save her and clair will die then in the future hiro will come back in time to give nathan a message to save clair but if shes alive hero won't go back...AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH time paradox

You gotta think of it of two different time lines being created, rather than the same one looping. (Look at "Back to the Future" at how the Doc draws up a timeline. )

No doubts that Hiro will forever continuely travel back in time, at some point and in some way to retell Peter to save the cheerleader indefinatly for each time she ends up dying. For all we know, this could be the 10th attempt Hiro has made to save her. The time line will keep the same, each time they fail. However, for that one time when they are able to stop it, and she lives. An alternate timeline will be created, where she is saved and Hiro has no need to travel back. However Hiro retains the memory that He came back and told himself to save her, although he will never actually have to do it now, unless she gets killed again and has to go back.

You need to understand did you ever see Dragonball Z? The exact way and what Hiro said to Peter is nearly identical to what Trunks said to Goku.

After Trunks warned Goku about what happend, Trunks still didn't change his own future. The second universe future (remember there can be several tangents), still stayed the same, but since Trunks went back in time for that life saving message it saved Goku's future timeline, and the people.

When Trunks went back to HIS future it still was the same. (Where the Androids took over and blah blah.) Dragonball Z stays faithful to the Tangent universe theory. There is nothing that Hiro can do to save the future he came from. Thats why he says

"I am risking a Time rift by coming here." Hiro probably knows that if he stays there too long that the two universes the Tangent and the other will combine or WILL cause a paradox where the two will destory each other. That's why he said that.

The same goes for Back to the Future, where Doc Brown was explaining the Alternate 1985, that they went into the future too. Remember that Tangent will ALWAYS exisit after it's created, but the two can be destoryed if not careful. That's why DOC Brown was always careful about talking to Future,and Past selves cause it can cause ANOHTER alternate timeline of the Alternate timeline.

However they can still save another Universes future.

It's also another Good theory that if you do go in the past TOO Many times and dot he same thing in the same Universe you can risk opening up a rift as well.

This was demonstrated in a Voyager episode where a Time ship created many years in the future went back in time getting the same Seven of Nine to save Voyagers Future, eventually she started being erased from time beacuse she was being taken too much.

Actually this one can be explained without spontaneous generation in a paradox. Because as we know, Future Hiro knows of the cheerleader's death. And he has determined that saving the cheerleader will save the world. He makes the message of the horrible future in his timeline, tells Peter, Peter passes it on to Present Hiro, but this timeline will be entirely different. Since the cheerleader won't die because Peter/Hiro/Isaac have the "Save the cheerleader. Save the world" message. And if she doesn't die, Hiro doesn't have to go back and tell them to save her.

It's a time loop, like a cassette tape. Somethin is recorded on it. You change something and go back and rerecord in the same spot. This erases any trace of the old material.

Does this make sound lgic to any of you?

I dont know if this will change your analysis at all, but two of the lines you had were incorrect, I checked the episode. It may change some of what you said about the message from Hiro.

I just wanted to point out that that doesn't mean that Peter had the scar before they met. I would point out other things that aer wrong with this post, but I'm to lazy... it wasn't too far off but there were a few things that were wrong that I saw...

No point in worrying about a paradox. Future Hiro tells Peter to be sure to tell me where we meet. Most of the audience thinks this means were Peter and Current Hiro meet, but when Hiro gets more experience with his powers he will understand it means when they first met. A.K.A the subway car. Future Hiro can't risk using his powers at the same time Current Hiro uses his. So he make sure to come at a time when he knows Hiro has been knocked out.

So Hiro has covered the possibility of a paradox with a simple message to himself via peter.

Actually, that means that Future Hiro is most familiar with a scar-bearing Peter. Peter could get the scar at any time between now and some time ( reasonable enough for Hiro to grow accustomed ) prior to when Future Hiro travels back to meet un-scarred-Peter. It doesn't necessarily imply that Peter has the scar when he meets Hiro for the first time.

The writers.

I think the real remaining question is how are they gonna let us see cool-Hiro again without some sort fo paradox. Maybe he expected to go back to his future but ends up in ours? So in like series 3 we have a nerdy Hiro who's never been outside the team and struggling, and then SuperHiro turns up :-)

I swear he says "She must live", not "You must live". Just listened to it, and it sounds like she not you.

Thoughts?

Agreed, it's "She must live". I can certainly see where you could hear that and think he was saying 'you' though. The way it is pronounced is kind zhe with a shortened E sound, almost between you and she. If you look at his lips, however, it seems clear that it is closer to the shape you use for SH than it is for Y.

My .02

So far, no painting has failed to come true that I can think of. Therefore, I think that the cheerleader will die, and they will freak because they think they have failed, except that the dead cheerleader will be Jackie not Claire.

Otherwise, this will be the first future painting that they have caused to not come true. Remember when Hiro saved the girl from the bus? Ando caused the crash in the first place, and the only reason they were there is because of the comic book, and yet the event still took place.

Who knows! Either way, entertaining to me.

well if all his painting HAVE to come true then they better move out of new york because it WILL blow up unless and this may be a crazy theory they can use the knowledge they get from his paintings to change the future from what was predicted i know crazy but thats what i think

One thing Id like to point out is the message says "save the cheerleader save the world" it seems everyone thinks that it means the nuclear blast.Only NY would be destroyed I think she is important to some other unforseen event.Something to do w/ the eclipse Id wager.

Well, we know that New York gets nuked in some fashion, in the future Hiro saw. Typical response to a giant explosion like that is to retaliate against our enemies, even if they're not responsible. So, the one explosion, leads to many, leads to many more. Not much of a jump to "save the world" from NY being nuked.

Another scenario: Maybe the Government discover the explosion is caused by a "mutant" and start to "cull" them, going down the anti-mutant route like the X-Men. This could result in an awful lot of destruction.

(Future Hiro looked to be from a very dark and dangerous world to me, post-apolyptic war-zone type place, where technology may no longer work and weapons are needed by all to survive (hence the sword not a machine gun).)

This is what the writers had to say when questioned about the idea that the paintings were absolute:



(CBR is the Comic Book Resources, Writers refers to two of the members of the "Heroes" writing staff, Joe Pokaski and Aron Coleite.)

The full article is here. (Spoilers)

I dont believe in time travel... I dont believe that time is a dimension that can be traversed, its just a measurement we came up with to define when a change occured.

I'm a fan of Back to the Future and Heroes and Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure and i like the fiction created around time travel, I think its best not to worry too much about paradoxes and just enjoy the show.

The one thing that has always worried me is that if Issac's power can be wrong or changed then perhaps even though Claire is the one we see in the paintings perhaps the Cheerleader they had to save was not Claire but the rival cheerleader (the name escapes me). I think thats possible because you would think somone from the future could easily find somones name. and say Claire if it was. Plus at heart she really was not like the rest of the cheerleaders, in fact the sterotypical cheerleader was easily her rival.

Anyway my point simply was there is no paradox if the cheerleader they were suposed to save was the one who died and not Claire. Thus the reason why Hiro came back still is nessary, and in fact its a perfect time loop no matter how many times Hiro would go back and warn peter Peter would ALWAYS fail thus one defined future and anything that happens MUST happen, so if the world is going to end, then they cant stop it.

However it is possible Hiro "saw" a possible future but that was what needed to happen to make the heroes move down the correct path. Perhaps the bomb is not the final ending (after all 5 weeks for a show that is suposedly planed for 6 seasons is just crazy) and a war where Hiro does dress like that as well as the others.

Again point is one single line of time with all things involving time travel happen because they have to happen and things follow fate and cant change.

Interesting discussion.

How will saving the cheerleader save the world? Does she get so depressed that in order to kill herself she has to hug a nuke? Would Sylar harvesting her brain kill her? It kinda looks like his shadowy self in the painting standing over her bloody body. To kill her Im guessing it would take pretty exceptional circumstances.