RainbowFrankenstein
Oct 30 2006, 08:34 PM
i think its kinda like if conjoined twins were born and one was a trouble maker and the other half was good.
but there stuck together and take turns.
see i dont even think nikki is a hero. shes just a normal chick possesed by some villain right now.
Super DJ
Oct 30 2006, 08:32 PM
Up until now, we've all been led to believe that Nikki was one of the "Heroes," one of the "good guys" in the cast and that while her power was odd and also very VIOLENT it was only used in self defense.
Now we know better and have learned that Nikki's "mirror self" isn't just strong willed and powerful, but downright mean, coniving and EVIL.
And her hubby D.L., a man we've all been lead to believe is a hardened, murdering CRIMINAL turns out to really just a thief who got framed, and isnt nearly as BAD as we were lead to believe.
So is HE the REAL hero? Is "Mirror Nikki" actually a VILLIAN?
Will "Normal Nikki" ever gain CONTROL of her evil side?
Can BOTH sides co-exist?
A very interesting twist this episode, indeed.
Mighty Lauren
Oct 30 2006, 08:52 PM
Niki niki niki.
I've been wondering now for a couple episodes how they were going to make Niki (and her blood thirsty alter-ego Jessica) into a hero. It wasn't till tonight that I started to wonder if maybe they had no intention of making her a hero.
But... maybe she's not. Maybe Niki and Jessica are the two extremes of her personality, and that if she can just unify them she could balance them. Nikessica (or Jiki, haha) might find herself smack in the middle. Not too good not too evil.
Maybe.
Warrior/Poet
Oct 30 2006, 08:57 PM
Maybe the producers just used Niki as a vehicle to get us to DL and Micah.
Maybe as a nice bit of, ahem, T&A... to lure some of us into watching.
Heck they started killing people off of Lost and people were like, whoa, hey, lead characters don't get killed off on tv, wha?
Eric in Long Beach
Oct 30 2006, 08:59 PM
Ali Larter is a main character. Good or bad, she's going to be in the series until the end of the season.
jaydude4c
Oct 30 2006, 09:35 PM
I wish she was more like Gohan, from Dragonball Z; whenever Gohan gets angry, his power multiplies a lot, yet he is still himself. I can't say I'm too big a fan of the "evil side" thing. It'd be cooler if she'd just get really angry and maybe her eyes go red or something yet she remains herself.
Dangard Ace
Oct 30 2006, 09:39 PM
Nikki just turned into Smeagol..except prettier and more powerful.
Though Ikin/Jessica screwing over D.L. ... not cool. I wonder what the back story for that screw job was.
HolyHellraiser
Oct 30 2006, 10:05 PM
DL and his crew were planing on stealing that money but DL decided not to and nikki b decided to finish the job and kill his crew for some reason i can't remember why he planed to do this or why he backed out or why nikki killed his crew because my memory sucks but i think it was for a good reason somebody who can remember what happened a few hours ago please remind me because i dont think niki b is evil i think she did what had to be done
EDIT:
i think they owed somebody maybe linderman alot of money and that job would have got them out of debt but it was to dangerous or something so dl backed out but nikki b finished it and framed dl to protect her and micah or something...
Nebula
Oct 30 2006, 11:20 PM
QUOTE (jaydude4c @ Oct 30 2006, 11:35 PM)

I wish she was more like Gohan, from Dragonball Z; whenever Gohan gets angry, his power multiplies a lot, yet he is still himself. I can't say I'm too big a fan of the "evil side" thing. It'd be cooler if she'd just get really angry and maybe her eyes go red or something yet she remains herself.
..or not?
Take another look at this episode. The cover of "9th Wonders" Issue #9 that DL is looking at when he is talking to Micah shows a creature that bears a strong resemblance to Nikki. The creature's hair especially curls exactly like Nikki's does. Those claws could easily explain how she could mutilate bodies the way she does. I have alot of trouble seeing Nikki dismembering bodies as herself..her human frame just doesn't suit the bill.
This would be pretty wicked if the image depicted is her.
If somebody could screen capture the image that would be great. I can't seem to get it myself..computer illiterate.
-Neb
Stv
Oct 30 2006, 11:27 PM
QUOTE (Nebula @ Oct 31 2006, 01:20 AM)

..or not?
Take another look at this episode. The cover of "9th Wonders" Issue #9 that DL is looking at when he is talking to Micah shows a creature that bears a strong resemblance to Nikki. The creature's hair especially curls exactly like Nikki's does. Those claws could easily explain how she could mutilate bodies the way she does. I have alot of trouble seeing Nikki dismembering bodies as herself..her human frame just doesn't suit the bill.
This would be pretty wicked if the image depicted is her.
If somebody could screen capture the image that would be great. I can't seem to get it myself..computer illiterate.
-Neb
I noticed it too. I mentioned it in a different thread.
Personaly I think that Nikki (in her entireity) is both Good and Evil. Classic struggle. She obviously doesn't like her "evil" side as she tells her to go away frequently. The Evil side just convinced her this episode to betray DL. And she never really confirmed as she was GOING to betray him, just that she wanted to know where the money was. Maybe she was going to get the money and explane everything to DL but DL caught her at a bad moment and then E.Nikki took over.
tl;dr? Nikki is the embodyment of the classical struggle of good and evil (which is being blurred in order for her to survive; condoning murder etc...)
Lady Heather
Oct 30 2006, 11:27 PM
I still do not think she is a villain. But she has a side she cannot control...YET. If she can learn to control it, then she can be on the good team.
Keshire
Oct 31 2006, 02:35 AM
QUOTE (Jhaks @ Oct 31 2006, 04:05 AM)

The 9th Wonders crazy long haired moster
could be her... maybe.
Here's the 9th Wonders screen cap:

I'm thinking the crazy long haired monster might be a representation of her.
uberhero
Oct 31 2006, 01:00 AM
QUOTE (Lady Heather @ Oct 30 2006, 11:27 PM)

I still do not think she is a villain. But she has a side she cannot control...YET. If she can learn to control it, then she can be on the good team.
Nikki hasn't killed anyone that didn't have it coming. Every person she murdered had been doing something bad (D.L.'s crew-robbery, Linderman's thugs-rape/murder, the poker players-shady dealings.) Keep in mind that she could have waxed D.L. too, but she didn't because he is good.
I think that Nikki and her villainous side are needed by the Heroes in order to actually kill the bad guys. Sometimes you need to fight fire with fire, and Nikki is the perfect foil for evil doers. The rest of the Heroes can concentrate on stopping the bad guys from doing whatever evil thing their doing, then Nikki can swoop through and make sure they don't do anything bad again by dismembering them.
Jhaks
Oct 31 2006, 02:05 AM
QUOTE (uberhero @ Oct 31 2006, 09:00 AM)

Nikki hasn't killed anyone that didn't have it coming. Every person she murdered had been doing something bad (D.L.'s crew-robbery, Linderman's thugs-rape/murder, the poker players-shady dealings.)
WHAT?! Shady poker players and robbers don't deserve to be killed just like that... jeez. I think murder is a bit to far...
It's very simple: Jessica is a heartless murderer that thinks the ends justifies the means. Who is important to her? Her son and herself. Not even DL. She
was going to kill DL.
Also remeber she would have killed Hiro and Ando if they weren't in the bathroom. She said she needed to kill all of them b/c she couldn't be "messy" (haha how ironic of her) and leave witnesses.
Niki however... is struggling very hard to take control of what she knows is wrong. I don't think NIKI is a villian. Seem sort of like Fight Club a little. Also her power isn't her split personality... it has to be something else. Like someone said above a person can't just rip someone apart with their hands. The 9th Wonders crazy long haired moster
could be her... maybe.
Here's the 9th Wonders screen cap:
SimoneD
Oct 31 2006, 02:52 AM
QUOTE (Keshire @ Oct 31 2006, 05:35 AM)

I'm thinking the crazy long haired monster might be a representation of her.
Nikki isn't a villian, but her alter-ego is. I think if Nikki starts to control her alter and maybe if they actually merge as one person, Nikki could overpower Jessica and gain control over her powers.
Celebrity Skin
Oct 31 2006, 03:58 AM
My guess is that they want us to think Niki will be potrayed as a "villian" now, but in reality she is a hero. Although - she has some very odd ways of showing it.
steve2112
Oct 31 2006, 05:36 AM
There's definitely a smegal/gollum, norman osborne/green goblin, or even Jean grey/dark phoenix dynamic going on with Nikki. Whether she's good or evil is the question. As this show has shown it blurrs the lines and makes everything shades of gray. We may very well never know.
Nikki so far has only killed other criminals so maybe Evil Nikki is more like the Punisher, though the punisher would just put a bullet in your head and not tear people limb from limb.
I still am unsure of the motive Evil Nikki had for framing DL since he appears to be a loving husband and father. He obviously made a mistake turning to crime in an attempt to bring more money into the home, but that doesn't justify Evil Nikki to frame him for murder and kill anyone that could clear his name. He'll be a fujitive for a long time.
My theory has a couple of wrungs to it. One is when you see Evil Nikki she has that symbol tattoo. I think she might work for HRG. She did use that linderman angle to setup Nathan. Sure Linderman wanted to blackmail him to get a congressman in his pocket but maybe EN (Evil Nikki) used that so HRG could get hold of Nathan. That could be a motive why she screwed DL.. He does have powers so he would be on HRG's radar.
In my mind the only thing that can save DL now from the cops is Hiro going back to save the guys playing poker. They are witnesses and can clear DL, but Hiro doesn't know that. Hiro can easily go back after past Hiro and Ando go to the bathroom, stop time and stop EN.
There's a lot of backstory that has to be told and I think Nikki/DL storyline is the vehicle to explain it all. Probably why this episode didn't have tons of action.
HeyItsJeffro
Oct 31 2006, 05:43 AM
QUOTE (SimoneD @ Oct 31 2006, 05:52 AM)

Nikki isn't a villian, but her alter-ego is. I think if Nikki starts to control her alter and maybe if they actually merge as one person, Nikki could overpower Jessica and gain control over her powers.
Who is Jessica?
Super Cooper
Oct 31 2006, 06:01 AM
Just a quick thought..the comic book image is making me think of the "shadow image" in the dead cheerleader painting.
Anyone else?
treepixys
Oct 31 2006, 06:09 AM
I think the issue of whether Jessica is good or evil is still up in the air. We don't know what motivated her killing DL's crew, stealing the money, and framing DL, but most of her other actions have been as a protector. I've read somewhere that Jessica is not bound by laws of morality or humanity. She does what needs to be done regardless of whether it is good or evil. But I'm still betting that by framing DL, she saved him, and by killing his crew she was protecting her family.
kimmy6904
Oct 31 2006, 06:12 AM
I THINK THAT WHEN D.L DID WHAT EVER HE DID TO HER THAT ... WELL NIKKI IS DEAD...
" HER COMES JESSICA!"
AND SHE IS ALL ABOUT THE EVIL. I BET SHES GOING TO START HELPING OUT DOING THE EVIL DEEDS, SHOOT SHES DOING IT NOW.
yuetheguardian
Oct 31 2006, 06:18 AM
okay I'm new at this so call me an idoit if I'm totally off... I think that Nikki as we know her is dead, "Jessica" will do anything to survive, I believe that when DL put his hand through her she subbed with Nikki. I also noticed something weird about the Tattoo, did anybody notice what shape its in? a half double helix (half a DNA strand) I think, I really think DL will become our hero and Jessica will be a super strengthed villian. Also it goes with the shows many surprises that it has given us, because she is a main cast member. I think Jessica will become a reoccuring villian. Also maybe Micah can sense powers, making him a good feeler for danger.
On an unrelated note is HRG this worlds version of Nick Fury? Is he part of an organisation to relate the powered? Because he really wants to keep Mohinder there, maybe he is attempting to assemble heroes himself.
Calamitus
Oct 31 2006, 06:25 AM
I think that Nikki is/will be evil until she has to choose between Micah and Sylar.
steve2112
Oct 31 2006, 06:50 AM
QUOTE (jamyp @ Oct 31 2006, 09:49 AM)

I think Niki only went along with Niki B because she was scared at the moment. She knows what Niki B can do as far as murder and she doesn't think she is strong enough to overcome that. I think she is still good and her part of the story will be about her conquering the bad side but keeping its strength.
One thing I am still a little worried about is why Niki B framed DL in the first place. I am thinking that she was looking forward to being secure financially and then when DL backed out she got ******!
Yes it's the motive I keep wondering about.
Meathead
Oct 31 2006, 06:44 AM
QUOTE (HeyItsJeffro @ Oct 31 2006, 08:43 AM)

Who is Jessica?
Jessica is Niki's alter-ego...there's a blog on here from one of the show's directors where he mentions that Niki's alter-ego is Jessica.
jamyp
Oct 31 2006, 06:49 AM
I think Niki only went along with Niki B because she was scared at the moment. She knows what Niki B can do as far as murder and she doesn't think she is strong enough to overcome that. I think she is still good and her part of the story will be about her conquering the bad side but keeping its strength.
One thing I am still a little worried about is why Niki B framed DL in the first place. I am thinking that she was looking forward to being secure financially and then when DL backed out she got ******!
MissMaya
Oct 31 2006, 07:12 AM
ok i just want to understand something, nikki b does still loves her son right?
since she did kill to protect him.
i dont know whats going on anymore!
WonderCanuck
Oct 31 2006, 07:19 AM
Nikki B isn't neccessarily 'evil'; rather, she's 'relentless' and will do anything to protect Niki A and Micha. She is certainly willing to
do evil in order to do so. When it comes to surviving she she definitely more 'fight' than 'flight'.
PLAS
Oct 31 2006, 07:24 AM
what if Jessica (or whatever you want to call her) is working for Linderman (or whoever the "bad" party is) but Nikki isn't?
Delxain
Oct 31 2006, 07:40 AM
I think the problem is simply that Jessica(Niki B ) didn't think DL would trust her if she came out and explained that she has a split personality and super strength(Niki was oblivious to the whole matter) so instead she decided it would be better to take him out of the picture. Ironically if she had been straightforward they may have been able to work out their diferences; personally I think they still might, eventually...
ILoveHiro
Oct 31 2006, 07:37 AM
QUOTE (Mighty Lauren Gitis @ Oct 30 2006, 08:52 PM)

Niki niki niki.
I've been wondering now for a couple episodes how they were going to make Niki (and her blood thirsty alter-ego Jessica) into a hero. It wasn't till tonight that I started to wonder if maybe they had no intention of making her a hero.
But... maybe she's not. Maybe Niki and Jessica are the two extremes of her personality, and that if she can just unify them she could balance them. Nikessica (or Jiki, haha) might find herself smack in the middle. Not too good not too evil.
Maybe.
yhea, she could be some crazy hero who can tear evil people in half!
Juggernaut
Oct 31 2006, 07:43 AM
Niki, and more specifically Jessica, is certainly not "officially" a villain. Jessica would be more accurately categorized as an "anti-hero", with selfish, self-preservationalist motivations.
She's not out to obtain wealth, power or cause death & destruction, she's simply "dealing with" anything that she perceives as threatening to her, and subsequently Niki's, wellbeing. The means by which this is achieved is sometimes outside of the accepted boundaries of "heroism" and hence the labeling of her as an 'anti-hero', a la Batman, Wolverine and Punisher.
ZachsMind
Oct 31 2006, 07:45 AM
The indominitable Stan Lee once said, "I always felt that if I had super-power, I wouldn't immediately run out to the store and buy a costume." If you're expecting from this television series a bunch of people who by series' end will be running around in tights and capes, you're going to be sorely disappointed.
None of these characters are 'heroes' in the modern stereotypical "James Bond" mold. Nathan's definitely got a dark side to him. Other characters appear bungling but their hearts are in the right place. D. L. appears to me the most heroic in deed and word, and he's a criminal who's escaped justice. The writers of this series are purposefully blurring the lines of what makes a hero. The entire series is an exercise in examining what the phrase means, and what it doesn't, and whether or not the average human being would choose to be heroic when given the opportunity. That's perhaps what makes it so damned fascinating.
They're all heroes in the more classical sense that Joseph Campbell discussed at length in his works. These are characters on a journey, and the path is so narrow for each of them that only one can walk it. The end result for some of these characters will fit to some extent the stereotype we all associate with the word "hero." However, for some, we won't recognize them as heroes.
In Nikki's case, I see comparisons between her journey and that of Doctor Bruce Banner in the Hulk comic books. Remember that Hulk briefly joined super hero teams like The Avengers and The Defenders, but he couldn't hang for long. Hulk was even with Alpha Flight for a brief time. The problem is split personality types just aren't very good team players.
Banner too suffered from memory and time loss, only to find his alter-ego was a rampaging behemoth with no morality. Nikki B's metamorphosis is not physical. She doesn't go green, and she was apparently never belted by gamma rays, but the transformation works in a similar vein. The fact Nikki B has now come forward and confronted Nikki A is a little disappointing to me. It breaks from the Hulk mold, but then the writers may not have purposefully used Hulk as an inspiration for Nikki. It could simply be coincidence. *cough*NOT*cough*
Would anyone consider Hulk a hero? There's been arguments on that topic for decades in the diehard comic book enthusiast communities. There's good arguments for and against Hulk as a true hero. Fact is The Hulk has carried his own comic book title off and on for many years, and is perhaps one of the first true Anti-Heroes to have such iconic significance to our culture. Banner had a journey, and surely if Hulk is not a hero than Banner's actions as the Hulk's alter-ego have offered him ample chances to prove his own heroic prowess.
Nikki has the potential to be a hero. She can overcome her dark side. She can try to tap into the same power reserves that Nikki B obviously has. How she became what she is, or where she's going, these are open to speculation and only time will tell, but she's undergoing a transformation. Like the phoenix bird, she has fallen and will no doubt be reborn. These are the hallmarks of the legendary hero's journey, as researched throughout human history. Joseph Campbell's works are quite elementary on the subject. I strongly suggest investigating his efforts to better understand where this series is going.
They're not all going to be good guys. Nikki may never be a stereotypical hero, but anyone who thought The Hulk was cool, couldn't help but think Nikki's better. Or at the very least, she'd look better in torn pants.
Ilyamasool
Oct 31 2006, 08:04 AM
First, I think there is difference between a villian and being evil.
I don't think Niki's Alter Ego (Jessica) is villian. I think she will be one of Heros.
I DO think Jessica is evil.
Lot of argument seem to say that being "evil" is something physical. Color of skin, male or female or some other physical characteristics. I think most of us would believe that being evil is what one do and reason behind the action.
It was broughg up that the people she killed somehow "deserved" to die, therefore making her action not "evil".
In case of two thugs who were killed in her garage, it was fairly clear. They were about to assault her and not too many of us would be trouble to see them be killed. Surely they deserved it.
But D.L.'s crew? What most of us of gang or "crew" are that they are usually doing something illegal.
Counterfeiting? dealing drugs? smuggling?
But whatever their scam is, just merely belonging to "crew" doesn't make them bad or deserving of death. D.L. was part of crew yet he work at construction for 30k a year to support his family. If argument is that his "crew" are bad and they deserved to die, then by same reason D.L. deserved to have gone to jail when he did since even if he was framed for their murder, he deserved some kind of jail time for whatever he was guilty of for being part of the "crew". So how do we say her killing of his "crew" was not evil?
And finally those poker players.
We know that one of them "laundered" money for other people. Does he make him "evil"? deserving of death? what does it say about jessica? who use his service to "launder" her 2 million? was he killed for his crime of money laundary? or was he killed because jessica just did not want him to tell D.L. who it was that laundered the "2 mil"? What about the 2 other poker players? what justification would there be for Jessica to kill them? Anyone who play with money launderer are deserving of death?
And finally, what of consequences? If someone walk into a crowded restaurant and blow away 20 people because he has multiple personality, does it excuse him? if he was single father raising 2 sick infants on several full time job and stress pushed him over the edge, do we let him go? what if one of his "other" personality is nicest young doctor who work in children's hospital where he is saving people's live everyday?
Is Nikki evil?
I think yes.
Wouldn't preventing her from being one of the "Heros"
Lene
Oct 31 2006, 08:35 AM
Good posts both ZachsMind and Iylamasool!
Personally, I think that as long as D.L has Micah, Niki will be a "villain" in the sense that she will get in the way of the other Heroes attempts to do whatever they have to do. Especially if they try to stop her.
ZachsMind
Oct 31 2006, 08:47 AM
QUOTE (Nambrosia @ Oct 31 2006, 10:33 AM)

I do not think she's dead
That's actually one point I have against the writers of the Heroes series, and I have many points of contention with them. When they opened up Claire in an autopsy a few weeks back, and used that as a cliffhanger, and then the next episode she was right as rain? That set a precedent for this series. The cliffhangers are fluff. They're pointless.
Nikki's had her heart gripped by her boyfriend. Ah the irony. The visual should echo with anyone who's been divorced. Anyone who's been dumped. Anyone who's felt the pang of an ex leaving never to return.
Nikki's about a dead as you or me. D.L. did to Nikki what Kitty Pryde would do to the Incredible Hulk if the two were ever to face off. He did the only thing he could do to stop something that was unstoppable. He put her to sleep.
She'll wake up next episode and be hot on their tail, because the one thing Nikki and "Jessica" (I prefer Nikki B cuz it's less confusing) have in common is their love for Michah. This means the cliffhangers will not have much impact on us at all, and that sets a bad precedent for the series. We feel no suspense for these heroes.
The reason why people felt so strongly about the death of J.R. back when the tv series Dallas was in its height of popularity, was because up until that point when a character died on Dallas they were pretty much dead (with unnotable exceptions). So people didn't think they'd bring J.R. back. They thought this was a big deal. Then they DID bring J.R. back but it wasn't immediate. They built it up.
A couple years later, they killed off J.R.'s brother, played by Patrick Duffy, and that was the season cliffhanger, then they came back from summer break and Victoria Principal enters the bathroom to see Patrick Duffy in the shower. Many argue that's about when Dallas jumped the shark. You can't rewrite like that. You can't diss your audience like that.
The writers of Heroes are treading a very fine line. If Nikki comes back without any side effects or anything, it's gonna mean future events that are even remotely similar will have less impact on the audience.
If Claire ever 'dies' again? We're in on the joke. We know Claire can't die. At least not easily.
Likewise, if D.L. ever 'kills' anyone ever again? We're gonna care about as much as when Spock used to do his famous Vulcan Nerve Pinch. i.e., not at all.
Nambrosia
Oct 31 2006, 08:33 AM
Thoughts on Nikki's "Death scene" at the end.
I do not think she's dead (contrary to what my roomie thought). I think Jessica and Nikki will have to join to survive the trauma caused by DL. This could be what combines the break in the personalities, enabling Jikki (i liked that one...lol) to work on her good v evil issues. That's what I thought when I saw it last night.
Chi Rombuu
Oct 31 2006, 10:05 AM
QUOTE (Ilyamasool @ Oct 31 2006, 09:04 AM)

First, I think there is difference between a villian and being evil.
I don't think Niki's Alter Ego (Jessica) is villian. I think she will be one of Heros.
I DO think Jessica is evil.
Lot of argument seem to say that being "evil" is something physical. Color of skin, male or female or some other physical characteristics. I think most of us would believe that being evil is what one do and reason behind the action.
It was broughg up that the people she killed somehow "deserved" to die, therefore making her action not "evil".
In case of two thugs who were killed in her garage, it was fairly clear. They were about to assault her and not too many of us would be trouble to see them be killed. Surely they deserved it.
But D.L.'s crew? What most of us of gang or "crew" are that they are usually doing something illegal.
Counterfeiting? dealing drugs? smuggling?
But whatever their scam is, just merely belonging to "crew" doesn't make them bad or deserving of death. D.L. was part of crew yet he work at construction for 30k a year to support his family. If argument is that his "crew" are bad and they deserved to die, then by same reason D.L. deserved to have gone to jail when he did since even if he was framed for their murder, he deserved some kind of jail time for whatever he was guilty of for being part of the "crew". So how do we say her killing of his "crew" was not evil?
And finally those poker players.
We know that one of them "laundered" money for other people. Does he make him "evil"? deserving of death? what does it say about jessica? who use his service to "launder" her 2 million? was he killed for his crime of money laundary? or was he killed because jessica just did not want him to tell D.L. who it was that laundered the "2 mil"? What about the 2 other poker players? what justification would there be for Jessica to kill them? Anyone who play with money launderer are deserving of death?
And finally, what of consequences? If someone walk into a crowded restaurant and blow away 20 people because he has multiple personality, does it excuse him? if he was single father raising 2 sick infants on several full time job and stress pushed him over the edge, do we let him go? what if one of his "other" personality is nicest young doctor who work in children's hospital where he is saving people's live everyday?
Is Nikki evil?
I think yes.
Wouldn't preventing her from being one of the "Heros"
Nice "Breakdown of Evil", lol sounds like a cheesy metal band or something. Seriously though, I don't think we have really seen how evil the persona of Niki can get. Atleast we know Jessica has a mothers love for Micah, so atleast their is a sign of humanity. She can't be all evil, maybe like it was said earlier " Micah may be the deciding factor in what critical path Niki takes.
darth mual
Oct 31 2006, 10:26 AM
I too think its up in the air...It takes me think back to Buffy the vampire slayer and Spike. He was bad he was good hs was both. The question is can a "bad" person be tolorated for "good"? Does she have to be either? Do our brains need for either good or evil because we can't handle shades of gray? Is killing "bad" people jusitfied? I'm not writing her off as good or bad. I'll let the writer play out her storyline..
Another thought...The show's title says it all. But who is the better have: Niki or DL or Niki and Jessica? Is Clarie the better half of daughter and father? Is Prof son (can't think of his name) the better with next door girl? Who's the better half of Hiro and Ando?
I love the show titles/credits openning on this show!
Socrates
Oct 31 2006, 11:17 AM
I don't think we can "officially" label Nikki as evil.
Obviously, both Nikki and Jessica love Micah and will do anything to protect him...or maybe Jessica is just using Micah against Nikki to get her to do what she wants.
My question is, what does it take for Jessica to take over? Why bother to tell Nikki to do anything and not just take over and do it herself.
I have come to really like the Nikki character. She is definitely the "Hero" stuggling the most with the realization that she is different. I loved the scenes in this episode where she was basically losing her mind.
Juggernaut
Oct 31 2006, 12:00 PM
QUOTE (Ilyamasool @ Oct 31 2006, 11:04 AM)

... I DO think Jessica is evil.
Lot of argument seem to say that being "evil" is something physical. Color of skin, male or female or some other physical characteristics. I think most of us would believe that being evil is what one do and reason behind the action.
It was broughg up that the people she killed somehow "deserved" to die, therefore making her action not "evil"...
I thought it best to paraphrase than make a long post even longer, but anyway...
The flaw in your logic of defining Jessica as evil is that you base it up on an inaccurate proposal that she killed those people because they deserved to die. This was not the case, rather she
justified those killings to Niki by rationalizing that it was not a 'bad' thing because they deserved it.
The people that she killed each posed a threat to her survival and/or freedom and she disposed of those threats not out of malice or determination that they deserved it but to preserve her own wellbeing. By your same labeling of Jessica we could assume that lions, tigers, bears (oh my) are all inherently evil because they will kill if necessary in the name of self-preservation.
Niki/Jessica is a far cry from morally pure (but who isn't nowadays, right?) and employs very questionable methods to achieve her goals but what she does is not borne of a tendency toward evil, she is simply unbound from moral and emotional restraint and that causes her to go to greater extremes than we consider acceptable.
Does that excuse her actions or justify her methods? Not at all... but neither does it make her an evil person, just morally destitute.
Hippogirl
Oct 31 2006, 12:12 PM
QUOTE (Ilyamasool @ Oct 31 2006, 11:04 AM)

First, I think there is difference between a villian and being evil.
I don't think Niki's Alter Ego (Jessica) is villian. I think she will be one of Heros.
I DO think Jessica is evil.
I won't quote the entire post, but I agree with all of it, definitely.
To me, whether or not Jessica was out killing innocent people or hardened criminals doesn't necessarily determine whether she was evil or not. We don't really know her motivations yet, but she's showed no indication of having a conscience or caring anything about the moral or legal implications of what she does. I think she was justified in defending herself against the thugs in the first episode, but some of her other choices are morally iffy, to say the least. We haven't seen any real reason for her frame her husband for murder, and she admitted that killing the cardsharks was about not being 'messy'. She didn't kill them because they were fiends who pointed guns at nice Japanese guys under tables, she killed them because they could incriminate her. Selfish motivations aren't always bad, but her actions are pretty extreme.
It's also arguable, in my opinion, whether she told Niki that D.L. would take Micah away out of an honest fear of that, or because she wanted to appeal to Niki's love for her son to get on board (in other words, she could have just been manipulating Niki).
I don't think she's necessarily a villain, though, because so far, she doesn't have much reason (that we know of) to pose a threat to most of the characters. She might be a threat to D.L., but I have a hard time believing that she's the part of any bigger conspiracy against the heroes. I think she's too selfish for that.
HolyHellraiser
Oct 31 2006, 12:18 PM
lacking morals is a good way to describe nikki b she isn't commiting evil deeds just to be evil she has a good reason for what she does its just how she does it that is evil
and if that blond golem on the cover of 9 wonders is nikki then she is the hulk but if memory serves banner did gain some controll over the hulk so theirs hope
Nebula
Oct 31 2006, 12:28 PM
QUOTE (Super Cooper @ Oct 31 2006, 08:01 AM)

Just a quick thought..the comic book image is making me think of the "shadow image" in the dead cheerleader painting.
Anyone else?
We took apart Isaac's apartment and the images we could see there frame by frame (no pun intended). The shadow seen on the ground with the cheerleader running up the stairs looks very much like the taloned monster from the comic book cover. Maybe Nikki B is trying to introduce herself? LOL, and Claire is overreacting? Based on the "Issue #9" reference to the monster, then this painting event may happen in Episode 9.
This should not, of course, be confused with the obvious reference to ballcapped Sylar in the tall painting showing dead and brainless Claire.
Question: Why did Isaac paint the pic of Nikki and the money, but hide the shoulder tattoo with a wipable substance? Does this tie into the theory several people have put forth that the tattoo only shows up on the Nikki B persona?
-Neb
Brie
Oct 31 2006, 12:52 PM
QUOTE (HeyItsJeffro @ Oct 31 2006, 05:43 AM)

Who is Jessica?
Jessica is Nikki's bad alter ego.
Ilyamasool
Oct 31 2006, 01:22 PM
QUOTE (Juggernaut @ Oct 31 2006, 03:00 PM)

.. By your same labeling of Jessica we could assume that lions, tigers, bears (oh my) are all inherently evil because they will kill if necessary in the name of self-preservation..
...Does that excuse her actions or justify her methods? Not at all... but neither does it make her an evil person, just morally destitute.
That is most common reply I see in argument/consideration against any action being labled "evil" or not. It is fair question and hard one to answer since I sure as hell haven't heard any good reply to it, but of some that I particularly like is this.
Does it matter if Lions and Tigers are evil or not? if I were somehow stranded in Jungle teaming with Lions and tigers, does it matter to me that these animals are not "morally" evil in their action? I would treat them as "evil" and shoot to kill on sight if it means they will eat me or my family.
If Jessica is going around mindlessly killing masses of people left and right, does it matter if she is doing it because she is evil or because she is morally destitute?
Fine, strip the humanity off Nikki and call it an animal called Jessica. It kills with no remorse and no regards to rest of society.
Does it change the way we should treat it? shouldn't we hunt it down and kill it before it harms the society farther? put it to sleep? does that make it sound better now that we are not calling her action evil?
What if Niki was a guy named Miki? and he had Alter Ego called James? What if he went around raping woman not out of and morally evil intention but because of his instictive desire to procreate.
Still not evil?
Should he still be allowed to join other "heros"?
Maybe only if he had cute little son/daughter called Mikie and he is a good father to Mikie?
Ofcourse all this is moot point. She will be accepted as member of hero and perhaps few season down the line they will use her alter ego to "betrey" the rest of hero during sweeps week then some how redeem herself following weeks for "good TV"
but someone does something, it is bad, then we should be able to say that it is bad
that it is evil
xkevanx
Oct 31 2006, 01:53 PM
Nikki is possesed by another being, (jessica) who is doing what she wants to come to some sort of end. IT hasnt been revealed yet what jessicas true motives are, but i definately dont feel like shes doing this for the good of micah and nikki.
I actually am wondering if Jessica is actually the name of the other being, or possible just a persona. We have probably all seen the banner above showing uluru, and if im not mistaken did DL not joke with micah about Uluru the invincible. I believe he made this comment after looking at the 9th wonders comic. So maybe the representation on Jessica on the front is kind of in mid shape shifting? It looks kinda like shes changing form to me..
Or maybe Uluru is from a past comic, but he is going to be part of the show in the future, supposedly he gave micah nightmares
Case closed
EntropyAvatar
Oct 31 2006, 01:55 PM
It looks as though the reason she killed DL's crew was because they decided to kill her. The reason she decided to do the job in the first place was to get money to support Micah ("$30k a year doesn't cut it when you have a kid").
I think all of Niki B's actions can be seen as defending herself or Micah. The initial decision to do the heist wasn't an attempt to frame DL, it just worked out that way once she was forced to kill DL's crew.
At that point, Niki B wouldn't turn herself in, because that would separate her from Micah. Better that DL take the fall.
When DL was going to clear his name, she was faced with the same decision. It's not that she wishes harm on DL or the money launderers, but anyone that poses a threat to her or Micah needs to be removed.
I'd say the total disregard for the welfare of anyone who isn't her or Micah makes her evil, yes.
Heroesfan!
Oct 31 2006, 02:15 PM
QUOTE (treepixys @ Oct 31 2006, 02:09 PM)

I think the issue of whether Jessica is good or evil is still up in the air. We don't know what motivated her killing DL's crew, stealing the money, and framing DL, but most of her other actions have been as a protector. I've read somewhere that Jessica is not bound by laws of morality or humanity. She does what needs to be done regardless of whether it is good or evil. But I'm still betting that by framing DL, she saved him, and by killing his crew she was protecting her family.
For those of you wondering about her motive for killing the crew, go to NBC.com and read the graphic novel for episode six. The novels give a little backstory on the episodes. For this episode, it featurded Nikki B (I like that more than Jessica) doing a robbery with DLs crew. They ask her what she will do with the money they stole and after she replies they pull out guns to rob her/kill her. She kills them, of course.
mutant freak
Oct 31 2006, 02:16 PM
I will have to rewatch the ep to get the exact wording, but the voiceover narration by Mohinder at both the beginning and ending of the episode talk about evolution being a process and that individuals have to make choices and the choices aren't about morality or "good" versus "evil" but come down to "survive or perish."
Ikin/NikiB/Jessica is clearly operating out of survival mode. She has killed, yes, but it's not like she's just wandering into the neighborhood McDonalds and is killing random strangers for fun. Her killings have purpose and are clearly out of an instinct for survival, not the joy of killing.
I'm not at all arguing that murder is justified, or that as humans who have a capacity for rational thought (though sadly we don't always use it) we shouldn't strive to be "better" than animals. But, when you get right to it, we are animals who have an ability to radically effect the world in ways that creatures that we think of as "animals" don't. That ability is far more developed (collectively) than our capacity for ethical behavior and reasoned judgment. I'd argue that if our capacities for the latter were as strong as the former, the world wouldn't be in the state that it is.
ANYWAY Niki's alter-ego is clearly dangerous and capable of betrayal, and could perhaps be considered amoral, but that's not the same as evil. The interesting thing about this character is that this conflict resides in the same person. Niki, I think, is basically a good person, and she seems genuinely horrified at the thought that "she" killed all these people. And yet it's also her, or a part of her, that goes on these rampages when under threat. It's one thing to disagree or be disgusted by the actions of another person, but when that other person is also you...!?
I think this character really is the most psychologically complex of all of them.
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