Ok, so discounting the whole "hole ripped in space/time" that Hiro would have created when he left current time.. I'm left with a few questions.

1. Obviously Hiro didn't travel back, or else he would have reappeared to Ando almost immediately. My guess is Ando was right, and he just doesn't have enough control of his powers yet. So, would that mean that there are now two of him in the past and what does that extra matter do to reality (they two won't encounter each other, so atleast there's that)?

2. How far back did he go? It looked to my in the photo that he was pretty good friends with the waitress. So I'm thinking that he ended up staying in the past.. and when (and if) he meets up with Ando again, Hiro and the waitress are going to be very close (similar to the episode of 4400 where Tom and his wife lived 17 years in his head).

3. Let's say he went back a ways. What if he went back more than six months? Does that mean he was there the day the waitress first got her power?

4. And if he went back more than a few days... wouldn't that mean there were THREE Hiros in the past for a short time (the "original", the one we know from last night, AND the one who met up with Peter in the subway? Hiro seemed to suggest that his travel DOES interfeer with space/time to a degree.. we just don't know how much.

5. If he keeps stopping time / going back and staying there, doesn't that mean he's aging prematurely? After all, he's experiencing much more of time than anyone else (except maybe Peter)?

6. If Hiro DID go back and save the waitress, wouldn't he suddenly not have a reason to go back in the first place? It seems to me that had his plan worked, that Ando would have seen (or we would have seen) some kind of change in the present... as Ando still knew Hiro was in the past.

As I said.. things are getting complicated!

Great breakdown of your ideas on this.


He *did* travel back, just not to their yesterday. There are not two Hiro's in the past, and I think that he is going to live in the past, make friends with Charlie, and eventually meet up with Ando again in the future, after his original self goes back to save Charlie. He will find him to save Claire


Either he went back really far, or just 6 months, but either way, he was at her birthday party, which is most likely celebrated near her bithday.


I was thinking this too. If he stays in the past, 6 months ago, he will be 6 months older than he should be.


I think he stays in the past because he doesn't have control of his power. He can stop time easily enough now, but going back and forward in time is not his best skill yet. I think he knows that if he stays in the past, he knows where Ando will be and when. He just needs to keep Charlie away from Sylar...

What happens if Sylar doesn't find Charlie on the day she originally died. Will Ando be killed instead?

Dunno. If Hiro was successful, then that means that the waitress never showed up that day. Thus, Sylar would have no reason to be their either. Even accepting the "rubber band" theory of time travel in this scenario, Ando has got to be wondering where Hiro went. After all, the waitress never dies so why would Hiro leave/go back in time to begin with (and what about that photo)? TV show or not, it still leaves me with a lot of questions (which I likes)!

One a side note: a lot of people have been wondering how Future-Hiro spoke such perfect English. If he stayed in the past with Charlie... she may have taught him.

maybe i'll get an answer here?

why does ando go to the states?

Because there were two Hiro's. One in Tokyo who convinces Ando to come with him, and one in Texas. There were two Hiro's until Hiro "A" decided to go back in time to save the waitress. After that, there was only one.

I've answered this before. As for your probable response involving quantum physics and such, quantum physics are irrelevant. It's a TV show

Tom

tom

if this is the case (and this is maths not TQP) then an infinite number of hiros would arrive (i'll say in texas, but not sure of the exact point) at the same time.

Do you think there's a possibility that the writers are going to show us what happened to Hiro in the flashback episode airing in two weeks? Between showing Sylar killing Chandra and now this, I can't wait to see what they have in store

Originally (after seeing Future-Hiro), I thought they may have tried to cover this by saying Hiro only projects his image into the past/future - thus only relaying messages, etc... rather than affecting the physical world. But between his taking that comic back with him (as pointed out by Micah) and now his appearing in the photo... the writers have really "opened a big can of worms" as it were.

Have you ever thought about just suspending disbelief for just one hour per week? Seriously? You keep trying to use your scientific background to explain things on a TV show. It's irrelevant.

Yes, I think the time travel stuff is something that could screw the show up. If Hiro saves the girl, then why would he go back? I get all that, I really do. But it's a TV show.

ONE Hiro went back, so only one show up six months ago. We know there's ONE Hiro in Texas six months ago because of the photograph on the wall. Since Hiro didn't know he had powers six months ago, there would be two Hiros. It's not that difficult to get.

You're over complicating this stuff yet again. Just kick back and relax. It may be wrong according to all the knowledge you've acquired, but you've got three choices. Either suspend disbelief, accept that they're wrong about it, or turn the channel. It's not going to fit what you know to be true, so stop trying to make it

Tom

Here is another one for you.

Isaac has been 'taken' by HRG, therefore it is a good summise that he doesn't get to produce the comic that Hiro had to guide him initially.

Time manipulations creates paradoxes, the only really way to deal with it is in a linear string (so to speak) - but only for the traveller. /boggle

I don't think this show was written specifically for Mathmaticians or Physicists.. I think it was just for the average person..

For those who need this kind of precision and detail, I recommend watching Nova..

This I'm not so sure about. Remember, Mr. Bennett only "took" Isaac in order to find out what was going to happen to Claire. I think that he believes that he can stop it (although if he knows Sylar, then he also knows what the guy is capable of). We also know that Isaac was drawing "9th Wonders" before the show even started (something I also missed originally) - as Simone was yelling at him in episode two that he'd missed the deadline to turn in the art. Since the comic that Hiro got from the future was only a few weeks ahead, it's pretty likely that this was the issue Simone was refering to.

I'm more curious about Hiro finding Isaac in the loft with his head cracked open - since all his stuff has been relocated to Bennett's secret lab @ the paper mill.

i'll use your two hiro model. America Hiro (AH) goes back in time 6 months but is still in the usa, at the same time Japan Hiro (JH) is in Japan.

now AH takes a different path and lives with the waitress for the next six months.

at the point where JH goes back AH is still in the states. JH is 6 months in the past in the states, so there will also be Another Japanese Hiro (AJH) setting off to do the journey.

JH then spends 6 months with the waitress. etc, etc. but AH is spending 6 months with the waitress and no doubt AJH will and so on and so on.

this in itself causes an infinite amount of mini looping timelines all converging at one point, which in itself is impossible.

now there can only be one timeline (i wont go into details - i'll stick to the basic minimums) which means that all these hiros would turn up at the same point in time, which as i said before is impossible, meaning that there can only be one hiro... so my question still stands.

if you find any of this wrong please tell me why, and as i said its not TQP its just maths.

OR...for this particular FANTASY story, there are alternate realities/universes, or it's just a fiction show with no real basis in applied science theories.

I think Hiro going back in time, learns that he cannot alter the past without consequence. He looked unhappy in that photo, worried. I think he will learn that actions have to follow a course, and by interfering, the course changes. I believe that in addition to time travel, Hiro can visit alternate realities of the one he is in.

But the photo is misleading. If Hiro did travel to the past and was in that photo, then she should have known who he was in the restaurant. Unless somehow mindwipe guy is involved. "Take everything from the last 6 months."

I think HRG seems bad, but he is kind of keeping track of the Heroes and cleaning up their messes. dunno.

ando goes to the states cuz Hiro asked him to go.

how?

how do two or more physical beings become one?

if you ignore all science then:

a.). why does ando go to the states?

b.). assuming the two hiro scenario, what happens when they bump into each other?

I think if two Hiros occupy the same space, they will become 1.

All the knowledge will be combined into the single Hiro. Perhaps Hiro will even learn to split into multiple Hiros.

I think we were looking a different photo. I thought he looked happy. Anyone have a screencap?

It seems to me the writers of the show are going with a time travel theory in which the past can be altered. I don't think the birthday picture was there until the moment that Hiro disappeared or the waitress would have recognized him. If that was the case though then who gave her the Japanese book? But what I don't understand is why the cops were still there and the investigation of her murder was still going on. I am worried that Hiro was not able to save her or I think they would have disappeared as well.

Is it wrong? From a real world perspective, probably not. However, and this is the last time I'll say this, you're overthinking the problem. Time travel, done just like Heroes has been doing, is a sci-fi staple. The idea is that there are no infinite Hiros, because only one Hiro goes back. There is no loop.

Yes, I understand completely where you're coming from, but you are still seeing this as a model within your knowledge base (math or science is irrelevant) as opposed to a model within the writers knowledge base, which includes comics and sci-fi genre fiction.

As I said before, you can either suspend disbelief, accept that they got this wrong, or change the channel. I, for one, accept that they got this wrong and move on. What you do is your choice.

Tom

I totally agree with the overthinking (which is why I've been so general with my comments), but it still doesn't answer the problem of: where is Hiro? and why, if Hiro did save the waitress, were the cops still there?

Note: I like the idea about Hiro giving Charlie the Japanese book. Could he have also made the suggestion that Isaac start up the "9th Wonders" comic? Six months would be right around where it started.

Not if the US Hiro avoids the Japanese Hiro to keep that from happening. After all, Hiro is a Sci-Fi geek so I could hear him using Doc Brown's explaination from Back to the Future II



Thanks for pointing that out. At first I was like, WTF? Makes sense now

Tom

He was definetly not smiling in the photo (looks more like he's constipated actually), however... it could have simply been because he went too far back. He was, after all, only trying to go back far enough to save Charlie.. not six months (as implied by the episode 10 description).

A) Bear in mind, Hiro doesn't really speak English, Ando does, Hiro wants Ando to come to the US to translate things that happens (which Ando does...sometimes).

This isn't Time Cop, there will be no dancing Austrians to enforce Time Laws.

-Feisty.

what i meant was if hiro goes back in time 6 months, he would no be in japan, so ando would not go to the states.

if we assume the two hiro scenario (its posted earlier in this thread) both hiro's will converge at the same point and therefore they would meet.

ps. he's from belgium.

tom this was for the previous post

As soon as I saw this I was thinking total constipation before i read your post! He does look a little anxious. For some reason I was thinking he looked happy but probably just because she looks so happy!

I like to think that in the 6 months that Hiro spends with Charlie, they help each other: she helps him learn English, he helps her develop her memory ability a little bit more and then together, they see the news about the Texas Cheerleader saving the man from the fire and put two and two together and figure out that that's where they need to be to..

SAVE THE CHEERLEADER, SAVE THE WORLD.

the problem with string theory is that hiro would not be saving the woman he thought he would be saving and may never be able to return to his timeline and hence never being able to save the world as was his original intention.

(but i covered this in one of the other threads)

... and when Hiro number 2 (with ando above) where is Hiro number 1?

ok so first off, you people do not watch enough doctor who.

now real science to explain comic book science .

first off string theory says that there can be an infinate amount of demensions. simply due to the design of the universe.
( we typically think of the universe as a 3 dimensional grid. where string theory depicts it as a 3 demensional grid with spheres inside every "box". the spheres being made up of untold millions of strings.)

without string theory, the world is linear.. with the possibilties for time paradoxes being completely possible. which is why einstien didn't agree with time travel.

however, WITH string theory, it's now possible for your timeline to continue on despite you going back in time to "fix something" as you are actually going to another "string dimension" not your own, since each string has a linear progession.

and just so you know, string theory is also known as the "M" theory, or the "theory of everything".

no, i do not have a science degree, or even a diploma. i'm just a really bored sci-fi geek with a GED.
and ruler of the world.

now. remember folks this is a COMIC BOOK. ( on tv) REAL SCIENCE, has noooo real value here. For gods sakes, just look at how many different times comic books frack up their own timelines.

let the flogging commence.
long live doctor who and sliders.

~Mister Fate.
"your daddy"

that would mean that our hiro would no longer be in heroes, but instead spent his life doing something else, probably with the waitress.

... but how would he know that the other hiro would "save the world".

also, come to think of it, both hiros would arrive six months in the past at the same time (as would all hiros).

Its kinda easy to explain.

There are now 2 Hiro's 6 months ago.

Hiro is living in the past for the next 6 months, this has nothing to do with him and Ando going to america, unless Hiro who is in the past does something to disturb that timeline.

The only thing he must do is try not to disturb what happens to the people around Charlie when he is living in the past, and try to convince Charlie about what he does and stuff.

The reason he didnt show up 5 seconds later is why would he? Why would he show up right at the time he knows that a killer is around to kill Charlie, isnt that why he went back in the first place?

It's six months for Hiro. Not 1885



Because after Charlie dies, or whatever happens on the day Hiro goes back, he resumes the quest. Scientific sense? Nope. TV Sci-Fi sense? Absolutely.



There is only one trip back. Not an infinite loop because that would suck for telling a story on a TV show.

It's not math or physics, it's enterainment

Tom

The writers decide.

ok so up until last night it was only men that were being killed now the waitress that they just so happen to bring in for one episode. seems a bit odd doesnt it?

Just wait. He's pretty subdued right now

Tom

no i meant that if the two hiros are not to meet, he would forever have to avoid him as both hiros would be interacting with the same set of heroes et al.



but the other hiro would now be on the quest. and i was asking that if the first hiro steps to one side to let the next hiro take over, how do we know that he will not do the same thing?



but with more than one hiro there can not only be one trip.

i'm not trying to prove (using a scientific basis) that heroes is wrong, i'd just like someone to give me an idea of how these things may be possible, without resorting to "it's a tv show".

i'm not saying it's not entertaining... i love hiros, but i hate it when tv shows start off one way and then go another, ignoring what they promised in the first place.

I totally agree with this, and feel that we can safely assume that Hiro is not traveling to "multiple dimensions". It's more likely that the writers are using the more classic form of time travel, where he just goes up and down a single timeline.

This is also why I suggested the "Rubberband Theory" of travel, as it's the safest, at least in this case:

In this schema, travelers can go back in time and change history, but they better not mess it up too much! Basically, the timeline is like your parents? liquor cabinet. You don?t have to leave it exactly like you found it, but be careful. One drop too many and there?s going to be a freakout of major proportions. - Types of Time Travel

I think my head just blew up.

Except that with only two Hiros, he's the only one who would notice a difference, that difference being six more months.



Not really. I'll give my take on why below.



Ok, here's the best explaination I can muster for you. First, I ask you to listen as a fan, not someone who knows this field.

With all the talk of destiny and fate, they may be using the idea that all things happen due to some devine plan. Basically, time being linear, but with preordained events like Hiro's traveling back and forth through time. Since it's linear, there's not infinite loop. He goes back and forth through time because that's what he'll always do.

Scientifically, not so great. However, based on what I've seen from the show, and what I know about the genre, this is the most likely thing I've got so far. You can probably poke holes in this theory until we're blue in the face, but if that's what the writers are thinking, then that's just the way it'll be on the show

Tom

my theory is that once hiro goes back in the past, he lives out those six months as future hiro and eventually walks into the diner with charlie in tow a few minutes or so after he originally ports back. after learning english with charlie, he eventually sees the news report of the cheerlader being a hero, calls peter the day before homecoming to warn him and boo-ya, peter is in town where he meets claire but doesnt know shes the cheerleader and the events in the painting happen. /blockoftext

i don't get this bit.. could you explain. (but i do understand the rest).



oh please explain how our hiro lives out these 6 months as future hiro...

If you want to understand how time travel might actually work according to the views of one leading quantum computation theorist, look up The Fabric of Reality by David Deustch.

Basically, some interpretations of quantum mechanics allow for all futures to be equally real. When Hiro leaves Ando in the diner, he goes to another timeline where he may or may not rescue the waitress. He may or may not return to the timeline in which the waitress has just been killed. If not, the timeline will continue without him -- just as the timeline in which Issac loses his brain and NYC blows up continues to be real. In other words, the heros are creating timelines where "good things" happen, and we are watching that creation, but it doesn't mean the timelines where "bad things" happen cease to exist.

Of course, as others have pointed out, that doesn't necessarily mean that's the way the writers are going to decree time travel works on the TV show.

i too doubt that the writers would venture down the road of multi-dimensional theory, as it poses even more unaswerable questions... initially, why bother and ultimately, how does hiro return (or is it click your heels together three times and say "there's no place like home.")

Basically, the one who goes back in time lives out six months to get back to the point where he traveled back in time originally. Once there, he continues along on his quest with Ando only noticing a few minutes without Hiro.

Make sense? Or am I as clear as mud here?

Tom

but the other hiro would also go back to the same point in history or meet ando at the same point at the present. ie six months ago, one hiro has gone back in time, one is still in japan, but the one in japan is also in the past.

Like he already did when he went to NY 5 weeks in the future?

I am slowly beginning to think that Hiro will be unable to change the past/future or anyone will be able to prevent what Isaac paints (or change significantly at least). But its only what I think and there is no proof for either school of thought yet. (We'll probably get some evidence next episode.)

We will definitely see Hiro and what happened in flashback episode. Of course we have to see him in "Homecoming" too because of the painting of them with the bloody banner.

He would not have met Ando at the same point in the present if he never time traveled TO the present. Instead, he stayed for six months and walked into the place instead. Now, there is only one Hiro, when just minutes before there were actually two, just not in the same geographical location.

Picture a line. Hiros are all along the line. One jumps back to a point that equals six months prior. There are now two Hiros. The second Hiro moves forward with the other Hiro until the jump off point. Now there is only one Hiro.

Nothing I, or the shows writers, will say will work for you, will it? I'm not trying to be critical here, but with the background you mentioned elsewhere, you won't be satisfied with any answer we give I suspect. I understand. It's similar to why I don't watch Braveheart anymore. I know the truth versus the fiction

Tom