Hiro went into a different timeline, that is why his friend will be waiting forever. However, would that mean there will be two Hiros in that timeline he went to?

Okay read the topic and here is why:

If Hiro changes the fact that she dies, than that would change the fact that he would go back in time to save her. Because of that, Hiro can't save her because if he will he would never have gone back into the past to save her.

ITS JUST NOT POSSIBLE

You can't go back in time and change the reason why you went back.

dont quite get what u r saying...but how is that different went he traveled back in time to try to save NY?

Back to the Future physics and an actual theory states that you actually could do such a thing it is just you, or Hiro to be more exact, would be trapped within a new timeline that would skewer and split off of the original time line. In a way it would be like creating a parallel universe. Geez, everyone nowadays is so hard pressed against time travel ever working.

From a storytelling point of view, the whole point of Hiro's power is to be able to go back and change the past. (Or at least to try to.)

There is a problem, though. The picture of Hiro is on the wall and the girl is still dead. It would seem that whatever changes Hiro made to the past are already factored in. So I agree that, if the writers are being careful, Hiro's mission seems to have failed.

I agree, if Hiro had saved the waitress the events would have changed as soon as he travelled back in time because the changes in the past would have already occurred; having a simultaneous effect. But time travel is a little tricky in story telling because there are different universe discourses mumbo jumbo in effect; so I'll be interested in how the writers play this out.

Radical Theory 1:
Another random theory I thought of is that Hiro travels back in time and saves the waitress, but the ripple effect is too great so he must allow the waitress to die and that is why there is still crime tape on the restarant.

Radical Theory 2:
Hiro pops back in front of Ando with short hair and a sword on his and can speak english fluently. Just a wild guess.

You are trying to apply logic to something that does not exist, therefor has no rules. I am eager to hear Kring's explanation/interpretation of the paradox.

Perhaps the ripple effect of change is rather slow since a whole six month gap of time is being rewritten. On Ando's end of the time line small glimmers of change are starting to show up instead of everything being rewritten all at once.

Yes, yes, that! Just like in Back to the Future. Marty's picture faded gradually not just disappeared all at once. Its for effect because it's A TV SHOW!

First, remember it's a TV show. So, trying to justify a logical or pseudo-logical conclusion is very difficult. We don't know the rules of this universe thus can't accurately predict what will or won't happen (and the writers can just change their minds).

But, if Hiro appeared in the picture with the waitress in the "past", she didn't appear to know Hiro when they met in the diner during the epsiode. Meeting a charming Japanese speaking tourist would certainly be something to remember, especially if the waitress total recall was in effect.

So, Hiro is changing the past. There will be ripples in the story timeline. Whether he can save her (i really hope he does) will be determined next show (i hope). It would be cool if he did.

Consider this, when Hiro comes back from the future to send himself a message to save the cheerleader, what happen in THAT future? By saving the cheerleader (which i'm assuming happens) that future no longer exists.

Aint time travel grand?

Honestly yes there are 2 Hiro's in that time line now. But the one who went back isnt in any jeapordy to running into Himself, concidering the other Hiro is still in Japan.
And He can go back to save the waitress and she still wont die. He is in all honesty only changing one day. Just so happens it will take him months to change what happens the day she dies.

all of this is the waitress has to still die because there is still a crime scene is funny to me. You forget one very small yet very big detail. He hasnt saved the waitress yet. so of course there is still a crime scene. we are still seeing things from the current timeline and not the changed one.
And when Hiro comes back im pretty sure he will be speaking perfect english, concidering the waitress is the one who teaches it to him in the first place.
Hiro is in the past now and from where he is now the events that lead up to the waitresses death hasnt happened yet. So there is going to be a crime scene until things are changed. And by the looks of that picture that was on the board. Hiro has at least a couple of months to change the timeline.

I think he does save her some how. Maybe with all her super intelligence/memory the waitress can figure out how to save her own life. The question is can Hiro bring someone with him as he time travels?

I posted this on another thread, but it might give a reason why a crime scene is still there
Maybe, Hiro goes back in time. Makes friends with Charlie. Talks her into taking the day off with him. Sylar goes to the diner. ****** that Charlie is not there, he kills the waitress working for her. Meanwhile, Hiro has not shown up yet, because is his off with Charlie keeping her away from the diner.

cool topic, lots of theories can explain it. cant wait to see where they go from here.

Just my opinion, but too much thinking is going into this topic seeing how this is just a TV SHOW. It's just a story that's being greatly told and all stories have their mess ups. No matter how its told someone is going to say it was impossible and no such thing could happen and blah blah blah. That's why you sit back and enjoy whats going on and try not to THINK about it so much. Because let's face it this isn't real life and none of these things are happening, it's just a story. But a very good story.

I dont recall seeing any crime scene AFTER Hiro "warped" out. didnt the diner slowly change after Hiro left? I suppose I need to watch the show again and look closer.

Jayma Mays the actress who plays Charlie is scheduled to appear in the next episode.

Maybe HIRO can exist on mulitple timelines at multliple times...mabe when he went back...he saved a CHARLIE from the timeline where CHARLIE was saved and the Charlie from this timeline dies. He then replaces this CHARLIE with THAT ONE and *poof* the two timelines converge where she both DIED and was SAVED in the same timeline.

Anyone read DC comics Crisis on Infinite Earths?

There has to be some deviations from what we think to be normal..I mean the boy IS time hopping and that aint normal.

I think the waitress LIVES...and dies...but ultimately LIVES.

ok time is a tricking thing in the world of TV but here's how it works.

T=Timeline (a version of the events in which it occurs in time)

T1) waitress dies and hiro goes back in time, ando still is in that time line so hiro wont return
T2) hiro saved the waitress and has full memory but their will be 2 hiros in the same timeline.
T3)when time laps itself again hiro and ando will do the same events as T1 and it will repeat into infinitum.

Changing time is IMPOSSIBLE it'll happen again, time always gets its own way hiro simply changes one timeline for the better.

hope that cleared some stuff up a little.

If Hiro stays in the past, having lived out the last six months again, he'd catch up with NOW.

Just a theory here...but what if the time-jumps are only one way for him (at least for now) when he goes BACK in time. Hiro would have live out the new reality created by going back. Jumping to the future wouldn't change the past, so returning would be possible. Maybe this is something he has to learn about his skills the hard way, maybe he's not ever able to go back in time without re-living the past.

Time is a circle. If you change something in the time line it will just keep on going in a circle. It's a never ending cycle.

Uh, to move in time, there is at least one forward and one back movement to complete the round trip If you leap forward you need to leap back to return. If you leap back, a leap forward to get back...

we don't know how long between the death and the scene of them sat at the table... the body may have been moved.

and all this has been covered here:

http://www.9thwonders.com/boards/index.php...amp;#entry80343

I just watched it. The diner doesn't slowly change, it just simply changed. No "A Sound of Thunder" ripple effects. The picture is different and the atmosphere/camera angle is a bit different after Ando counts to 5.

There is no evidence that it's still a crime scene for a murder. In fact a janitor is coming out of the kitchen with a mop and a slosh bucket. This doesn't seem like a murder scene to me.

Something to think about... Once Hiro jumped back in time you never heard them mention who was dead or saw who was dead... It was only assumed that it was the girl... It could have been anyone.

I'm not saying that it wasn't the girl, I just don't want to jump to a conclusion when time is the factor that is in question. Once Hiro jumped he could have prevented the death of the waitress but not the death of someone else.

But Ando is at the wrong table. Why would he be at the table the Police interviewed him and Hiro instead of the booth where Ando and Hiro ate?

Interesting point. But we do see the two policemen questioning another waitress in the background.



I assumed time passed between when Hiro left and when we cut back to Ando. Perhaps he had been moved to have his statement taken?

It's not necessarily a "murder" investigation when things change. It could be a "missing person" investigation. This would explain why Ando is at a different table and they may still need his statement.

It could still be an investigation of some sort, just not likely a murder investigation with a janitor mopping up.

Here's a wild theory. Perhaps Hiro's powers become so great that he can see the flow of time, & what can happen if something would be changed, & perhaps he's so powerful that he can still send the message to Peter, since he was there, but he was only there... Okay, now I'm not making any sense to myself.

Okay, so "the grandfather paradox" is someone goes back in time, kills their biological Grandfather, so then by extension they never existed. So they could have never gone back to kill their Grandfather, but then they would exist & then could go back in time to kill their Grandfather.

So one way could be that you go back & do said act, & you still exist & remember your past, but no one would remember you, there would be no record of you. Or something along that line. A multiple timeline theory would be similar to that. You were born in timeline A, but now you've made timeline B.

I also like the time altering effects seen in the movie Frequency, him remembered all versions of his past was a neat thing.

Bah, well anyway, I should stop rambling. There's any number of things they could do, so now I'll just have to wait till next week!

Yes, if he did something that ultimately interfered with his original self from travelling back. For instance, if he went back to save the girl, but upon getting there decided he'd much prefer to kill her, then did so, the old version of himself won't meet the girl and travel back. In theory he could multiply himself over and over, and those multiples could multiply as well. However, I'm not sure his multiples multiplying would ever affect him. If they did it they'd go back to a point in time and start off a new timeline of their own from that point. It all gets quite confusing when dealing with multiple hiros.

Somebody els said it best when they said you just can't anticipate what is going to happen. It's a nice theory saying he's already gone back and tried, but the girl will still die. The problem is if he had gone back and met her before that day AND the events he sets in motion are the ones he's just played out, then she would've remembered him. Remembering is her thing.


Why is everyone talking like he has gone a long way back. Did we find out when Hiro went back to? I missed it if we did.

the grandfather paradox is a question.

.. and you've missed out whether or not time would allow you to kill your grandfather.

Yeah I understand the grandfather paradox. That isn't the only way to explain time travel though. Even the wikipedia page for a grand father paradox goes on to mention that it's only one possible theory, and lists a link to the mutiple timeline theory among others.

I'll relate it to your story to make it more clear. Lets say you've just finished off your grandfather. That's it, he won't go on to have your father (or your mother), and he (or she) won't have you. Yet you're still stood there. Since you were expecting to be dead by this point, and you've got no immediate plans, you decide to take your time machine back to the future, but when you get there you realise everything is different. You have changed everything with one act.

Think of the world as a road, and you find a magic door which allows you to go back to a bit of the road you've walked already. You go back to where the road forks in two, and you go a different way from which you went the first time round. That's pretty much it. You're back in an alternate future, hitler is king, your mum's your dad, your dad's your mum, you've just shafted yourself.

It is called a paradox. One of the most famous is the grandfather paradox. Let's say you had a time machine and you went back in time to a point before your grandfather met your grandmother. You kill your grandfather. If they never met, then your father was never born. Meaning you were never born, meaning that you never went back in time to kill him. And if you didnt kill him, then you, your father, and your grand father were all around and you went back and killed him. It is continuinjg with no end in sight.

as i said, the grandfather paradox is a question:

if you travelled back in time COULD you kill your grandfather (paraphrased)

the main three arguments are:

1). you could kill him but at that point you would cease to exist as you have ultimately ended your future.

2). you could kill him but you would remain in the past as you are physically there.

3). you would be unable to kill your grandfather as time itself would stop you from altering the timeline in any way.

(i wont go into each stem of each arguement as there are too many.)

the main problem with any time theory is that most people have no clue what they are talking about... even the basics.

i would give anyone a million pounds who could answer me three simple questions:

1). what is time?
2). how fast does time travel?
3). what is time measured in?

(i can start another thread for those willing to give an actual answer if needed.)

This is a brain teaser. We see Ando waiting for a few seconds. Who knows how long a temporal rift will take to reach him and change everything.

And if there is no temporal rift, then maybe Hiro is in the past (lets guess ummmm 6 months) and can't jump forward, then he'll have to live there for 6th months. During that time he'll create a new reality for the people in that town so when that day comes something different will happen.

However, since he's the Hiro of that day and going back in time in Texas, and assuming that he's not going to contact Japan Hiro , who's just discovering his power, Japan Hiro and Ando will continue their trip right up to the point where they go to the diner. So there will be two Hiros. But if he warns the waitress in the past and she's not there that Hiro will have no reason to go into he past and will continue his journey, leaving Past Hiro there in Texas.

Paradox?

taking my nerd hat off now.

Yeah, I never claimed to know the answer to your 3 time questions. I'm also fairly sure I refered to it as a theory, which itself implies I realise the validity of your post on how it's a question.

Yeah but right before i picked up that stem, in the first paragraph, i acknowledged that there were multiple theories. Now pay the man. Although I am interested to hear your answer to the three questions, so feel free to start up that thread and let me know where it is.

yeah, satisfactory, or at least semi-accurate and not answers that contradict each other or are obviously wrong.

Answer them or answer them in a way that you are satisfied with?

1) a concept.
2) it doesn't travel.
3) seconds.

Do you need my bank account number?

lol! Erm, I need your bank account number.

i wasn't arguing, just pointing out that you picked up on one stem. in your version, there is a stem that argues that you cannot return because you would not exist in the future.

the three questions are for anyone. and i'm serious. i just wanted to see what peoples takes were.

I already answered. I win.

Yep. You can't set out to prevent something that did'nt happen.

If I recall correctly from Back to the Future, the events that were causing Marty to fade were events that were occurring in the same universe discourse. (Biff was going to hook up with Marty's mom at the prom, causing Marty to fade, but Marty talks his dad to recapture his love by knocking out biff which reversed the ripple effect.) So if Hiro changed the past it would have taken effect the moment he transported to the past.

The answers to all three questions?

The great 20th century scientist Albert Einstein developed a theory called Special Relativity. The ideas of Special Relativity are very hard to imagine because they aren't about what we experience in everyday life, but scientists have confirmed them. This theory says that space and time are really aspects of the same thing--space-time. There's a speed limit of 300,000 kilometers per second (or 186,000 miles per second) for anything that travels through space-time, and light always travels the speed limit through empty space.

No, you can't set out to change somethi that didn't happen. But if it didn't happen he wouldn't have to set out to change it. The Grandfather Paradox yes but this is a different situation. According to recent research by Kip S. Thorn indicate that simple masses passing through time travel wormholes could never engender paradoxes?there are no initial conditions that lead to paradox once time travel is introduced. If his results can be generalised, they would suggest, curiously, that none of the supposed paradoxes formulated in time travel stories can actually be formulated at a precise physical level: that is, that any situation you can set up in a time travel story turns out to permit many consistent solutions. The circumstances might, however, turn out to be almost unbelievably strange.

SO basically: Hiro goes back. Stays away form past self. Somehow saves waitress. When he returns to present and he has confirmed himself going back, he walks in to remeet Ando. They continue forward in time. but when he came back after waiting through time for himself to "poof" in time, the self that teleports back ceases to exist. Thus saving the waitess and stopping any way fo engendering a paradox.

Man, it's wayyyyyy simpler than all these time traveling theories. It's like this: The photo was for the viewers, to show he went back in time. That's the only thing that we saw change.

The fact that the waitress is still dead and Hiro hasn't come back yet is a cliffhanger, nothing more. Gosh, ya think that's why they ended the episode on that scene? (Hint: yes)

Maybe Hiro comes back to his time, but arrives somewhere else. That's a possibility. Or Maybe he goes back in time to be with the waitress, and never comes back via his power, but actually waits the day or two. Remember, he was going to stop her from going to work. He could have just waited.

He may be waiting somewhere else, but he ended up going back about six months ago, rather then a day or two, hence the birthday picture from her birthday six months ago. I think he ends up staying the sith months, perhaps polishing up his english some.

Also the episode after next is titled "Six Months Ago", covering events of the characters six months prior, such as a certain time traveling Hiro.