So wait a minute so in the furture when she see's hiro again after she saw him in her birthday and everything being so smart she just forgot about hiro, hiro even gave her the book.. she was like someone gave me the book? lol come on who is the possible maybe time reset its self but then how she got the book this is like alot of confusing stuff right there.

she hadn't known him for months then. simple

*acts like that makes sense*

The implication is that after Hiro's time-trip, Sylar did not kill her - she died of the aneurism.

Simple, she got the idea of how his powers worked, and when he showed up, she knew she was going to die but played along with Hiro just because she longed for him.

OR that bloodclot is a Lady to short term memory.

i think it makes sense, things did change, but not the way he wanted. Hiro might not have been with Ando because he accidently teleported to Japan. Then showed up after it all went down.

You would think time would rewrite itself so that she would be ticked that he skipped out on her seconds after she gave her heart to him.

I think that may be the only logical explanation




But Hiro from the past would have still gone to see her...Hiro from the present was the one coming back from Japan

Maybe she did remember her and decided to play dumb. She didn't want Hiro to know he went back in time and fell in love with him. I guess she knew she was going to die because Hiro kept saying it, she might of kept it to herself cause she didn't want anyone to worry.

Yeah, I'm a bit confused about this as well. Time travel is always a complication to explain, especially when there's no set rules as it exists in many series/stories/fiction/whatever. I don't buy her dying of the clot right after she told him she loved him as months later she's at the diner and gets killed there, where Sylar gains another power.

I don't wish to sound ignorant but can clots as severe as her's damage memory? That could explain why she didn't recognze him but then again she's supposed to have a great memory and I can't see how she could forget someone she loved...Then there's that one waitress who referred to Hiro in the present when Ando spoke of him, as she didn't do a thing when Hiro and Ando first arrived..unless she didn't appear in that episode and I just forget...Meh, complicated.

I wonder if we were even supposed to notice this..maybe the writers don't have an explanation?

Charlie is still dead, and Sylar still has her brain

that was explicitly shown at the END of the episode for a reason

Hiro didn't change a thing before the point in time when he blipped to the past. only after he went back did things change

*still acting like that makes sense*

it makes more sense than a lot of the theories

So maybe things did change, people at the place knew Hiro from before. The picture shows that he was there 6 months ago.

I think I remember one of the people that worked there said that Hiro left a few weeks go. Could this be the time that he accidently teleported himself back into the present?

So Charlie did know Hiro, but since she died no one can talk to her.

He did change the present, but only for those people that he talked with and knew.

Think I got some of that right.

The only thing that gets me is that book she had. Was it the same one he gave her?

Maybe she does have short torm memory like someone said, maybe that is the reason she gained her power to remember everything.

i really dont get that either... i believe that maybe he goes back in time and the future after that point has changed. But since Charlie is already dead, her recognition of hero hasnt changed, but the other waitress Loretta(?) recognizes Hiro in the picture and says he hasnt seen him in weeks even though he was in the diiner the night before

If Charlie really remembered Hiro, but it was Hiro's first time meeting Charlie, would she play dumb knowing what would happen? What would be the reason to pretend like they never met before? I don't think the blood clot would have made her forget all that time they spent together but I'm still a little confused. He changed the past, but didn't change it at all.

I think that when Hiro travelled back, that storyline overwrites the one he came from (instead of Charlie getting killed by Sylar, she dies from her blood clot). Reason I believe this is that had Charlie been murdered at the diner, there's no way in hell that they would still have it open and serving people when Ando was still there. Also the fact that the other waitress recognized Hiro and remembers him, and the photo of Hiro is still there.

Hiro may not realize this since the tribute to Charlie is still there, but he did change the past in a way. Only problem was that he tried to change a dead end problem, where Option A was for Charlie to be killed by Sylar or Option B was for her to be killed by her brain condition.

Time travel hurts my brain.

All,

This post, and others, inspired me to write a long thread in this section of the forum about Time Travel in Sci Fi. Rather than repeat myself (I'm long winded), I will just provide a link to the other post.

http://www.9thwonders.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=39902

Lewis

God, it surprised me just how dense some people on this board can be sometimes.

Its easy to explain. Hiro DID alter the future, but only slightly. Pay close attention to bulletin board at the diner in episode 8. Before Hiro tries to go back in time, Charlie's birthday picture only has Charlie in it. Hiro is NOT next to her. The past had not been altered at that point. Hiro did not go back in time until after Charlie died, therefore Hiro had no memory of talking to Charlie after the past was altered.

When Hiro was talking to Charlie in episode 8, they had never met before... ever...

I don't understand why nobody is getting this. Its not like the show was subtle about displaying both versions of the picture prominently in the eighth episode.

I'm more confused about Charlie's memorial. It showed up right after she died, but looked as though it had been there for a while. Maybe using her ability caused the blood clot to kill her sooner?

As I stated in a previous post, what you say makes complete sense, except for the part about the Japanese Phrase book. Hiro gives it to her 6 months ago. She does not recognize him in the diner the night she is killed and tells him that she has/was given a Japanese Phrase Book.

But again I say this amounts to an Ooops. Throw out the detail of the book and your explanation makes perfect sense.

and Ando?

I wonder if he were looking at the board with the pictures as it happened... would the picture blink into a new one? fade into? Is he in some parallel world keeping Hiro connected to this dimension now?

The problem still lies with the book. If time is continuous even if the past is *re-lived*, she wouldn't have had the book until after she was dead in present time. So having told Hiro and Andro about the book before being killed, and having recieved said book from Hiro, he must have already met her.

I think what this really amounts to is an Ooops. It can't be completely explained with logic other then to say oops.

Not really, some else gave her the book in the unaltered timeline. When Hiro gave her the book himself, the person that planned to give her the book before simply bought her something else.

Wait I've got it! Hiro already knew she had been given a Japanese Phrase Book before he jumped back in time. Maybe he thought if he gave her the book first, the point at which she receives the book from the original giver, she will realize that Hiro did indeed travel time as he said. This did happen before she told him of her medical condition and he gave up on saving her.

Maybe? Maybe not?

The book was very specifically shown and mentioned. Maybe the writers do have an explanation, but will they share it?

It doesnt look like an oops to me. This happens all the time in time travel sci fi. When we first see them meet, they've never met before. When he goes back, he totally alters the time stream. If we were allowed to watch the night of the murder "again" then it could look totally different. Hiro might not even be there "this time" or he might. She could die on a different day. The patrons might all wish Hiro had taken her to Japan after all. None of that will necessarily alter Ando's memories at all, since it is totally common in sci fi and comics for friends of time-hoppers to become partially aware of multiple time streams. Alternately, Ando is from the old time stream and slips over into the new one with his memories intact. Any previous or alternate versions of every one and every event either no longer exist, exist simultaneously "some-when else" or just dont matter.

Paradox is a fun part of time travel, and not at all an oops. Or it could be. Still, as a Doctor Who fan and a Farscape fan, this all works just fine for me, no goofs required.

Lewis

So how about this for an idea.

Hiro goes back in time and meets Charlie and spends about 5 months with her.

Prior to Charlies Death we saw the photo on the wall and it didn't have Hiro in it. But after he decided to go back for the do over he appeard in the photo.

So Maybe what happened is more along the lines of he fails to get Charlie to not go to work that day but Hiros and Charlie entire conversation changes because she knew him before, and Hiro told her that one day he would arrive and he would not recognize her because of bending the space time continuum. She remebers that and enjoys spending what she knows will be her last day alive because the reason she has come to work is that someone else has told her that she unfortunately needs to die, if she doesn't hiro will be killed by Sylar at the school and new York will go boom. Why would Ando still eb sitting there, well you saw how much interest he was taking in the conversation, it could have been a very different conversation to what we saw.

You never can tell what will happen if you cause a rift.

Sorry for the crossposting but i failed to post this in the right topic...

Ok, this is my theory.
We can't deal that considering time as a straight line.
I think that was happened the following (Hiro is the X):

1) Hiro is in the present dimensional line
a ) Charlie will die by Sylar -------------------X----------------

2) Hiro goes back to the past coming to 6 months ago
a ) Charlie will die by Sylar -------------------X----------------
b ) Charlie will die by Aneurysm ----X-------------------------

3) Okay, now Hiro backs to Ando in Texas
a ) Charlie will die by Sylar -------------------X-X--------------
b ) Charlie will die by Aneurysm ----X--------------------------

Every single decision in time makes a new different dimension with a specific past, a specific present and a specific future. Just like Donnie Darko or Twelve Monkeys. HOWEVER, EVERY fate comes to his real term without no exception, in a way or in another

Have you looked the new X? X is Hiro: did he returned to right time and right dimension? Maybe and maybe not:
i'm curious to see if in the actual present there's still a picture of Hiro and Charlie on the wall.
Because if there's it, Hiro has joined to a new dimension

a ) Charlie will die by Sylar -------------------X---------------
b ) Charlie will die by Aneurysm ----X--------------------------
c ) Charlie will die by Sylar ----------------------X-----------

If not, and if he's returned to the right same dimension from he started, i think that he disappeared in the kiss time because a rift was going on. Future Hiro has yet understood that. Hiro's first journey in the future (8 Nov) was in the same right dimension from he started.
But travelling to the past, being with Charlie, he was twice in the same dimensional time - like future Hiro and Hiro in Vegas - cause another Hiro was in his office in the b dimension, and this was no good. WHO forced him to disappear? Time force itself? Hiro's power itself, for protection?

Didn't Hiro go over to Charlie's shrine and put a paper crane on it? Right behind the candle there, you can see the photo of him and her at her party, right at the end of the episode?

You are all making this WAAAAY more complicated than it needs to be. 1st of all you assume every detail needs to be explained. Well, if they did explain every detail, there would be little use for message boards like this one. Anyway, for what it's worth, here's my thoughts...

1- Charlie's memory loss: Maybe the Haitian got to all of you before he got to Charlie, but doesn't anyone remember that there is a character in this show that is following around HRG examining the Heroes and wiping their memories clean? Isn't it possible that since Charlie is right in their backyard, that sometime in the 6 months between the picture being taken and Hiro's "original" trip to the diner, that the Haitian got a hold of her and wiped her memory clean?

2- Rift in Time: Trying to apply time travel laws from Back to the Future, Timecop, The Butterfly Effect etc has no place here. Since time travel isn't real, any "laws" may be created at will by the writers. There is no evidence of a rift in time or different realities. If there was a rift, Ando would have no recollection of Charlie at all. When Hiro returned to the diner Ando assumed Hiro had saved her. If there was a rift, or different realities, Ando would not remember Charlie being murdered.

Fire away..

I forgot it. That makes no totally sense This must be considered a new dimension created in the present when Hiro was gone 6 months ago. From now i will consider the picture as a frame of two dimensional lines crossing themselves. The first, before Hiro decided to travel back, and the second when he travelled back. In the second there was already another Hiro, so a rift was coming up and Hiro returned to the first, was meanwhile changed generating a third i know this is confusioning stuff but dealing with time theories is always like that and is a good food for fans - i'm still thinking about Donnie Darko.
We can assume that in this third dimension Charlie was anyway killed by Sylar.

If Hiro, when goes back to top of the building, is in the present, when is he? How can he travel so fast coming up again in Texas without powers? He teleported some time before? He teleported in the during time of the waitress that said who he's gone some weeks ago? I don't think so, because the japanese guy said that he believed Hiro was in the USA with Ando...

1 - By my theory, Charlie had no memory because this was in a first dimensional timeline. This dimension was modified with time travel, but we'll never see again the scene when Hiro met Charlie like Ep.8 so is not so important i think.

2 - There was not a rift but a risk of rift, like in the subway. Two Hiros in the same dimensional line. This dimension is "Charlie will die by aneurysm": here, the "correct" Hiro is in his office. There's no place for another dimension (Hiro travelled back) to fit in, i still believe that's the cause of his sudden teleport on the building top. Ando is still in the first dimension, who's changin around him (the waitress, the photo), becoming the third. There's no more Hiro in the second when he comes back, but the first dimension, regarding Hiro NOT travelling to six months ago, has generated the third by the changes. There still should be a first dimension where Hiro did not travelled back somewhere in time-space, but was not the turning we've seen. Picture on the wall is just a "extraordinary witness" of the first and the second layers crossing themselves during the creation of the third.

They seem to be going for the whole Red Alert 2 way of doing things. Where changing the past can create a rift (new timeline), that then merges with the existing timeline, leaving various anomalies (explaining why a rift is regarded as bad).

By living so extensively in the past, Hiro created a rift. This is where he gave Charlie the book, took the photograph and fell in love.

When the rift was merged with the main timeline the photo, book and memories were kept. However Ando who was completly unaffected by the rift only experienced peripheral changes (photo, book).

The book however appears to have been a mistake by the writers, as it should have appeared the same time as the new photo, not before. Certainly not before Charlie was killed.

I just thought of something interesting: Charlie was planning to go to Japan when we first met her in the diner. She said someone gave her the phrase book for her trip to Japan. This may indicate that she was planning to take Hiro's advice and leave, she just didn't know that she should have left a long time ago.

This is where my theory has holes in it, but I am going to try: She may not have said anything to the Hiro that had never met her because she knew it might change whether or not he went back in time.

But Brody lost all of his memory so the Haitian probably can control what memories are lost and which are not. Good point about the pictures...didn't think of that.

But the big question is... is it "effected" or "affected"?

Charlie may have her weaknesses, but we have been lead to believe that there is *nothing* wrong with her memory.
We should ask ourselves if Hiro, in his attempt to alter the past created an alternate timeline.

If Charlie had to recognize Hiro, she should been the same one dead by the aneurysm she can't recognize Hiro simply because meeting him was before she died by Sylar causing him to get back. There are parallel layers of time-space.

And i don't think the book was originally given by Hiro, that's because she said that didn't start to read it 6m ago but just a week ago, instead of what we've seen in this episode. Charlie of the present was not the same Charlie of the past, are on two different timelines, although are addicted to same specific events at same specific times, as destiny wants.

The book was no mistake by the writers. When Hiro went back he changed many things that would have effected (or is it affected...I never get that one right) everything from 6 months ago going forward. The fact that today's Hiro (the Hiro from ep. 8) hadn't gone back in time yet has no bearing on whether the book should be there or not. Hiro, theoretically, could wait 30 years and go back and give her the book and she would still have that book on the day today's Hiro arrives at the diner the first time.

Anyway...the piece that seems to have most viewers puzzled is the fact that Charlie doesn't recognize Hiro. My contention is that in the 6 months between the time that Hiro goes back and when he arrives at the diner, HRG and the Haitian find Charlie, examine her like they did Matt and then erase her memory like they did to Matt and Brody. If that is the case it eliminates all of the "holes" in the story and gets rid of all of the BS about alternate time lines etc.

Problem with that is, Matt lost nothing other than the time he was being monitored by them. He did not forget his wife, job or anything else. Why would the Haitian have erased her memory of Hiro?

Also, if she always has the book when she meets the present Hiro, why would the picture not always be of the two of them?

Please read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_paradox

Hiro at the end of the episode says that "his power is more complicated than he can think" or something like that.. Hiro from the future in the subway talked about time rift... i can't believe that we must assume that the space-time concept in the series is a straight back-forward.

So based on definitions in the the link you added, if it is not straight back-forward then why bother going back at all? Hiro would have no idea which parallell universe he would travel to. And based on the definition, it would be impossible to go leave one universe and arrive in the same universe at a different time. Therefore it would be impossible for him to affect any change in his "real" universe. And if that were true, why would Hiro go back to tell Peter to save the cheerleader if he didn't know which parallell universe he would go back to? I could see him going back to try to save Charlie because he doesn't yet know about alternate universes but the future Hiro would know.

Future Hiro appears really sure about time travel works. That's probably because he got a deep experience with it (we've just seen one example). He KNOWS how to travel in the exact universe. But he's the trained future Hiro. I don't know why he's not come back to save the cheerleader but this question is not restricted only to straight line/parallel universes debate. Now we're watching the novice Hiro. Assuming the parallel layers theory, in every alternate universe there's a Hiro. The Hiro in Vegas, who goes six months ago, starts in facts to change HIS universe, where already stands Ando. Hiro travels back to ANOTHER dimension (although there's impossible to make it on the SAME dimension, like u said, and in facts future Hiro comes from the post apocalyptic eventuality) and starts to change his universe affected by events of the another dimension, but since he's also risking a rift he unconsciously took himself back (losing his power, i think he's get overcharged). The photo and the waitress that knows hiro are effects of changes in the Hiro's traveller universe.

ok here is somthing thats bugging me.. Hiro went back six months ageo and is there for a cupple of days right? the thing that puzzels me is that the other waitress that recognized Hiro in the pic said he poped out of Charlies life a few WEEKS ageo. humm.. introesting.. if he had been there only a few days dont you think that she would have said "he poped out of her life a few MONTHS ageo".. there is a BIG diffrence between a cupple of weeks and months.

Umm...I'm pretty sure he was "in the past" for a lot longer than a couple of days. Probably up until he "popped" out of her life a few weeks ago in fact. Since it was the past, to the present world, it would not seem like months...just days or hrs if at all...at least I think.

i dont think so. heres why, lets say it took Hiro a cupple of days to get the job at the Diner, we all know how inportant saving Charlie was to him he wouldent have waited six monts to tell her, he started trying to save her as soon as he could. having that in mind Hiro was probably working there like a week at the most. then he got her the book the next day (it said on the captions that it was the next day) he gets her the tickets trys to kiss her and poof hes gone. still only a cupple of days, maybe weeks. but it may all just be in my head.