You gotta be kidding me, Charlie was gonna die anyway . . . I thought Hiro was gonna cry

I was going cry!

thats like a slap in the face...he gets stuck there and then that happens BOO

I believe the words best suited to this plot twist are
1. LAME
2. CLICHE

sorry, new to the board, didn't think it would copy everything, LOL

Yea, it was definatly sad and not really what I thought was going to happen. Is this cliche in comic books? Because I didn't really find it very cliche as far as movies and books go...

probably the hero (Hiro) trying to fix things and they go awry . . the only movie/book reference I can think of is The Time Machine by HG Wells

Calling it cliche sounds like they took the easy way. But you have to understand that when telling a story, especially one where "things happen for a reason", Charlie's imminent death was just that. She was meant to die, nothing cliche about that.

That's just the 2002 movie "The Time Machine" which doesn't have much of a resemblance to Wells' book past minour details. The 2002 movie is the one that threw in that whole love story and how nothing the traveler can do to fix things works because his wife always ended up dying another way anyway.

good point . . been a while since I read the book, so I guess I meant a movie cliche (:

That seems to be what's happening here, though. Hiro's spoken of time rifts, and it seems to me that changing a major event in the past would seriously disrupt the future (ie, in Hiro's case, Ando might not be where he left him, and that's just the tip of the iceberg). It would also make sense that the further back he goes, the more serious the disruption would be. Things like Charlie's aneurysm are the timeline's way of preserving the present. There were minor changes, like the waitress knowing who Hiro was, but nothing really significant changed.

Ya, ya, me going cry too. Right before engrish resson.
HAHAHAHA!
Forgive me, I'm so tired.

that was the saddest thing... her saying she loved him and about to kiss him and hiro desperately trying to get back to her. Boo I say, BOOO!

I agree. Hiro should have at least gotten a symbolic goodbye kiss then leaped out of there. That was a terrible parting for Charlie and Hiro. After all his efforts..ugh.

I guess Peter can change the timeline by saving a stranger like the cheerleader, but Hiro can't change the timeline by saving the one he loves. Who makes these crazy rules? (that's a rhetorical question)

It also gives emphasis to Hiro's role in the nuclear bomb plot (if it is in fact nuclear), and the aspect of possible failure.

The thing that unsettles the plot moreso than her death, is the timeline paradoxes it starts opening up where Ando is still in the future, and Hiro has went 6 months back. It just left a lot of questions, which were skimmed over in this episode so they could move it along to the next episode, not focusing on the "pocket-time-anomaly" that would have been raised through Hiro's actions this time...

For instance, if Charlie died from an Anuerysm before Sylar got to her, then Hiro and Ando would never even have met her in the first place. Did she still die from Sylar, or "natural causes"? If Sylar got her, than Charlie would have known Hiro from the start when they "met", which just creates this confusing time loop where alternate pocket realities start coming into the equation because the INITIAL ACTION would have been changed...

But, you know, they've been doing this stuff and many more unexplained improbabilities in comic books for decades and getting away with it, so I don't see why "Heroes" should be any different. They just need to be careful when dealing with time travel, in regards to memories and events..

Hiro should remember in "Star Trek" that they eventually had to stop using maximum warp speed because it was creating tears and rifts in the fabric of space and time...

Why not just teleport the blood clot out of her head?

Well, papa scherech(or however you spell it) did say that usually mutations are usually Cancer or some other anomily in the body.

I was thinking the same thing. I still felt bad for Hiro, though.

I got the impression that she still died by the hands of Sylar, otherwise the little picture shrine would not have been there when Hiro returned. He didn't talk her out of going to work on that October day, he only managed to fall in love & then realize she was doomed either way.

Destiny. Charlie HAS to die for the greater good. And even if Hiro would save her from Sylar, and then a new hero with a super healing touch would come out of the wood work, then a cessna would fall otu of the sky and land on her.

Who said that it was Sylar who killed Charlie in the first place? We didn't see her head cut off. They only showed a lot of blood. Could have been from the anuerysm (sp?) bursting. And so far as when she meets Hiro the first time he comes into the diner, by then she knew him from 6 months earlier, finally believed in his powers (he just 'popped' out at the moment of the kiss). So when she sees him, she knows it's best to act like she never met him before - and even references the book given to her. So - no Sylar murder. Just coincidence.

isn't this an answer for the people who said Hiro can't save Charlie? you maybe able to stop Sylar from killing her but she's still going to die one way or the other.

you can't go back and change what haas already happened. the future on the other hand should still be wide open, so I guess there is still hope for NY.

So Sylar was just there for the coffee? No he killed her. My question is we don't know how Sylar takes over the powers of others BUT as some has theorized he is able to map his own brain(or fix) to match the brain of his victim. Given that were true would he then have the same Annerysm that Charlie had?

but that wouldn't be "fixing" his brain would it? maybe if he got rid of the annerysm, but if he has to chop her head off it to do so...maybe Sylars a good guy "fixing" supers head problems!

Yeah, we've seen...



This photo was showed by HRG to Eden in 1x09

yeah, so i wonder if at least some of the heroes will have a type of cancer, and does hiro still have his powers? and who dies?

I was of the opinion that Sylar didn't kill her. The shrine would have still been there because she was loved and the crime scene would have disappeared (like it did) Hiro did do the heroic thing by making her last days more enjoyable than she could have imagined. He also realized that having powers means making sacrifices and that doing the right thing is more important than doing what you think is right.

Charlie = Gwen Stacy. It doesn?t matter how she died, so long as she does.

I agree that Sylar didn't kill her. So in away Hiro did save her from THAT death. He did jump into the past and caused minor ripples in the timeline but it essentially stayed intact. She was to die. Hiro's actions just changed the "how". I think the shrine in the diner was to her passing from the tumor, not the killing.

NOW that said, I think the storyline was LAME. Hiro doesn't get the kiss and he leaps. What's up with that? Then he leaps to the top of building where his business associate friends are doing calisthenics (yes, i know they do that in Japan). The whole thing was like a dream/nightmare sequence.

Then it appears that he jumped back to Japan present day and had to fly back to the States to catch up with Ando. For whatever reason he couldn't jump.

So, what we saw where the waitress dies by the hands of Sylar never happened. The same shrine exists but the reason of her death changes from murder to death by tumor. And we the audience have to put this together and accept it. Yeahhhh, riiiiiight.

I dunno. If the joint had a waitress die of sudden but natural causes, they still might put up a little shrine, especially if she was well loved, as Charlie was.

I actually like that they left it open as to how she may have died. I think it must have been Sylar still, but the fact we didn't see means more room for theories.

And while yes, it sucks she died, and Hiro's sweetie is no more, awful things have to happen to Hiro. Compare the Hiro of today, very bubbly, happy, cheerful, to the Hiro of the future who showed up on the subway. He was more serious, gruff, and showing a lack of the bubble. He was a Hiro bad stuff had happened to - stuff like this. Poor Hiro.

I wonder if there are any ramifications for a person who.

Buysa round trip ticket to the USA, flies to the USA.. and then buys another ticket to th USA from his same hometown (Tokyo) and fies AGAIN to th USA.. but he never re-entered his country from his first trip.

Does Hiro keep his passport with him at all times?

Was itin his pocket when he traveled from presnt day Burnt Toast Diner.. to Six Months ago? And then did he keep it in his pocket incasehe were to accientally teleport away in his sleep? Because he didn't plan on teleporting away from Charlie, so would he have his passpport with him then.. how about while washing dishes at work?

Did he need to get a NEW passport aftyer getting off that rooftop?

Wy didn't he call the diner, on his arrival to the rooftop, and ask for Charie?

**********

And she could have taken that trip to Japan, with the plane ticket Hiro gave her. or as sme speculate, she chose to remain at work, to be killed by the very bad man.

How can any of you say that Charlie wasn't killed by Sylar? The only thing that changed was Hiro appearing next to Charlie in her birthday picture. She still died in the same manner. No, we didn't see Sylar pop her top and do whatever it is with her brain tissue. No, there is no police tape, etc. However - Charlie knew she was going to die. Not just by the tumor, but she had probably come to believe Hiro. Without her violent death, he wouldn't teleport back to the past and they wouldn't fall in love. As we all know, a love lost toughens us in many different ways, as it will toughen Hiro. As someone else pointed out, the future Hiro that appears to Peter is much more serious and his English quite improved (I thought I heard his English getting better throughout last night's episode).

If I'm not mistaken, the killing happens early in the day and by the time that Hiro returns to Ando's side it is well into the night time. The police may have wrapped up their investigation of the crime scene-the shrine had already begun to come together when Hiro left (and, after all, Midland is kinda small). No, Charlie knew she was going to die that day and choose to go to work anyway so that she could still experience her time with Hiro. Destiny, fate, whatever you'd like to call it - change just one tiny thing and the ripple effect can be huge.

Finally, about how Peter could change something, but Hiro couldn't...Remember that Peter changed the future that had been foretold, while Hiro was trying to change the past that had already ocurred.

THE FUTURE ALWAYS IN MOTION. HARD TO SEE.
- YODA

I felt so bad for Hiro. That was soooo sad. I really like Charlie too, I wanted her to stick around. But Suresh was talking about mutatations like everyone keeps bringing up. Unfortunately she was meant to die, it seems.

Quantum Leap anyone?! LOL! Poor Hiro

The aneurysm and the super memory is the plot line for John Travolta in Phenomenon. He can memorize quickly and dies at the end of the movie due to the aneurysm.

You're joking right? Please say you are! An aneurism exploding and blood penetrating through the skull? I think I've heard everything now!

And Sylar was sitting inside the cafe because he was, what... just hungry and happened to stop at the nearest cafe with heroes in it? No, you are absolutely wrong! Sylar killed Charlie. Whatever power he assimilates by taking brains he wanted to do the same to Charlie.

okay, what if the blood clot was part of Charlie's special ability. it reminds me of the movie Phenomenon where he suddenly has this incredible ability. But this has already been stated. I don't necessarily think this is the end of the Charlie story. I think the blood clot will play a significant role in the discovery of ALL the heroes. Matt and Ted(?) talked about having really bad headaches after their encounters with HRG and Haitian guy. Maybe they had blood clots or something removed from their brains, and the headaches are just part of the recovery. Remember how HRG kept saying "Clean him out"? Haitian guy knew exactly where to look because he probably has the same amount of power as Sylar.

Another theory that has nothing to do with the blood clot... I think that all of the Heroes are somewhat like Peter. When they come into contact with another Hero they gain a little of that hero's ability, like the fact that Hiro is picking up English incredibly well for someone who couldn't even speak it a few days ago. I think Sylar is really sick, but he may believe that removing the brains is his way of gaining access to the powers of others, while HRG and the Haitian guy may have found a less disgusting way of gaining new powers.
Just a thought.

Ok, this is my theory.
We can't deal that considering time as a straight line.
I think that was happened the following:

1) Hiro is in the present dimension line
a ) Charlie will die by Sylar -------------------X----------------

2) Hiro goes back to the past coming to 6 months ago
a ) Charlie will die by Sylar -------------------X----------------
b ) Charlie will die by Aneurysm ----X--------------------------

3) For some reason (i'm thinking to the same effect in "Twelve Monkeys"), Hiro backs to "a time" in Japan (no matter when..)
a ) Charlie will die by Sylar -------------------X----------------
b ) Charlie will die by Aneurysm ----X--------------------------
c ) On top of Japanese building --------------------------------- <-- ? "when" is he? before the beginning of his quest?

4) Okay, now Hiro backs to Ando in Texas
a ) Charlie will die by Sylar -------------------X-X--------------
b ) Charlie will die by Aneurysm ----X--------------------------
c ) On top of Japanese building --------------------------------- <-- ? "when" is he? before the beginning of his quest?

Have you looked the new X? X is Hiro: he returned to right time and right dimension, because every single decision in time makes a new different dimension with a specific past, a specific present and a specific future. Just like Donnie Darko and as i said Twelve Monkeys. HOWEVER, EVERY fate comes to his real term without no exception, in a way or in another.

Not sure if anyone else thought of this, but here's my semi-theory-
Chandra mentioned Shanti dying and how it was related to her genetic abonamaly.
And Charlie has an anuresyum. I cannot spell at all.
Think of Charlie's power, if had most to do with memory. THe blod clot could have taken place in the part of the brain that controls memory. Maybe some heroes' powers end up having very negative side effects [ that can lead to death.]

Umm... just a thought, but who's to say Peter actually did change the timeline? Sure, he saved Claire, but a cheerleader still died. Not that I have any proof, but none of us do really, but what if Jackie was the cheerleader that was to be saved? What if her death actually causes a lot of the Heroes to be forced out into the open, as well as closer scrutiny of what the heck HRG does and Claire's powers (how many times can she show up coevered in blood, unharmed?)

As for Charlie, and the Anuerysm... well... I do think that it is part of their powers, maybe. What if it's not an actualy anuerysm, but some other mass that obviously doctors are going to identify as an anuerysm because they aren't going to say "Oh yes, you have a mass in your brain that will cause you to have super powers."

Also, when "Sylar" watches Brian Davies use his power, he says "I see what is wrong" or "I see where the malfunction is" or something like that... indictating that it looks like there is an abnormality in the brain that is apparent when one uses their powers.

Regarding my theory, i'm curious to see if in the actual present there's still a picture of Hiro and Charlie on the wall.
Because if there's it, Hiro has joined to a new dimension


a ) Charlie will die by Sylar -------------------X---------------
b ) Charlie will die by Aneurysm ----X--------------------------
c ) On top of Japanese building --------------------------------- <-- ? "when" is he? before the beginning of his quest?
d ) Charlie will die by Sylar ----------------------X-----------

If not, and if he's returned to the right same dimension from he started, i think that he disappeared in the kiss time because a rift was going on. He was twice in the same dimensional time and this was no good. Future Hiro has yet understood that. WHO forced him to disappear? Time force itself? Hiro's power itself, for protection?

To answer the when question about Hiro's returning to Japan: he returns to the present, only on top of his office building. The giveaway is a coworker remarking that he thought Hiro and Ando were in the US on vacation.

Personally, I think Charlie always had the blood clot, and that it wasn't a way to kill her off despite Hiro heading back in time. My belief is that Hiro's powers subconsciously avoid making significant changes to the time line. Just when it seems like he is going to take Charlie to Japan to avoid her fate, his powers kick in automatically and take him to Japan in the present-- and procede to ignore his wishes to return back to the time that he just left.

Now, it is looking like fate and destiny have taken everything into accound; even time travel, to the point that the significant details are already in place even before Hiro travels back (the phrase book) but other details change (Charlie originally started reading the book only about a week before her death, but in Hiro's trip to the past she read through the book quickly.) Honestly, I don't think the writers have a time travel theory in mind, they just want to pile on coincidences and gloss over details.

I'm continuing here
http://www.9thwonders.com/boards/index.php...amp;#entry98878

This very similar to the plot of a BtVS episode. A girl knows she is going to die on a certain date. Buffy saves her life 3 times and then the girl dies of a congenital heart condition. The message is that you can't always save them.

Hey I remember that episode, the girl knew she was going to die and when throughout the whole episode. Buffy was led to believe that it was a group of guys that used the girl as a sacrifice for a demon. Anyway, I digress... but that's a good example you brought up. Poor Charlie.

Save the waitress, save the pumpkin pie!

Click on "view more" after Homecoming in Claire's blog:

http://www.myspace.com/ClaireBennet

It looks like Sylar got to her, but two weeks prior to the original murder date of the day before Homecoming.

I don't think the aneurysm killed her sooner because Hiro went back in time. I think that was just something to make the audience not feel so bad about her death. We could rationalize it by thinking "She was going to die anyway."

It didn't work for me though. She still dies in a horrible way.

All roads lead to Rome.

You were putting the X on the wrong axis!


------------------------Y--------------------------
The Flow of Time
X= Charlie's birthday.
Y= Charlie dies.
Z= NYC goes boom.

Sylar kills Charlie.
~~~/--------------\
----X~~~~~~~~~Y-----------------Z(1)------
~~~\--------------/~~~~~~~~~~~Z(2)
Charlie dies from the blood clot.



Ok... wait. I can't explain this using words. I can explain it mathematically... and someone translate it.

The present (Y) is independent of events in the past (X). Thus the present is not a function of X. No matter how you vary X, Y will remain constant.

The future, Z, is dependent on Y.
So Z is a function of Y.

Z0=f(Y0)
Z1=f(Y1)
Z2=f(Y2)

Where Y1 = Y0 + A, where A is an action.
Thus

Y(n+1) = Y(n) +A^n

See, this shows that the more actions you take, the more drastic the change of Z(n+1)-Z(n) becomes.


So at Y0, lets say the day that Hiro teleports to the future, the future event is Z0. NYC goes boom.
Y1, lets say the day that Charlie dies, the future has been changed a little, to go to Z1.


Does anyone understand what I'm trying to say?
It makes much more sense in my head.

;p

Geek time travel explanations make my head hurt.

I somewhat understand that actions taken in the present will vary the future. Meaning, by saving the cheerleader, one can prevent the post-apoptylitic future. But I don't understand how varying the past does not effect present events Meaning, I don't understand the assumption that Y is independent from X, but I get Z being dependent on Y.

Oddly enough, I would go with Back to the Future's reasoning that by changing events in your past, you would diverge the timeline into a parallel universe.

Think of it as travelling along one road.
You decide to go backwards a few miles.
Instead of going straight you decide to veer off to the right.
You, the time traveller, effectively travelled from one present to an alternate present, but still retain all your own previous history down the original road, meaning you still understand why you wanted to turn right.

Only problem with the burst blood clot theory is that is Mr. Bennett had a pic of her in his dead hero scrapbook.