It's probably not coincidence that they hung Gold Records in the background on the walls of Charles Deveaux's apartment in the pilot.

And I've seen him labled as "The Dreamer" and we know he could see invisible Peter.

So I wonder what his power actually is/was? Was he a "seer"? Able to see other dimensions?
Was he a musician? Were the gold records his? I mean do you think he earned them for performing music?

Maybe he used his music to change people's minds en mass? Perhaps he could have more impact on the world at large by writing and performing music than he could playing "super hero"?

Rocky Dragon,

I believe that Charles' power is astral projection, that is...traveling 'out of body' on the astral plane (dream state travel). He is the Dreamer.

Creator

lol good theory... it's a possibility

I was watching season one again and something Charles Deveaux said to Peter when Peter travels back via the dream in "How To Stop An Exploding Man," struck me as interesting:



Don't know if this has been covered or not, nothing came up in my searches. What does everyone think Charles meant by the comment in red above? Is he insinuating that Peter already has the same abilities of the other heroes? Maybe he just needs to 'discover them' (for example, watching other use them or finding out they have them)?

Or maybe just that Peter has had the power to stop the bomb and need to learn in the sense of growing up/maturing/etc.?

Charles is a rasta/reggae artist.

peter had "empathic mimicry" all along. that's what charles meant. the real question is: was peter's dream of nathan's car crash an example of astral projection or precognitive dreaming?

if you watch that episode, peter is awoken by the phone. i'm assuming it's nathan calling from the hospital or possibly someone else. this means his "dream" happened after the car crash, which leads me to believe that he was using astral projection and didn't even know it. though if we want to get deeper into it, i believe this power should be labeled as "ethereal projection" seeing as the ethereal plane allows you to still exist in our dimension, but unseen, and the astral plane would be the next step... where you're not part of this dimension anymore and you enter a "dream world" if anything. and the thing about the ethereal and astral plane is that they're not confined by time.

so with that said, ethereal projection would allow peter to see events from the past, present, and future in real-time without being seen. he's demonstrated this by seeing nathan's car crash, Charles and angela's discussion, and the future with him and Kaitlyn in new york. so i ask: where did peter acquire this ability? if it came from Charles, this would imply that peter had met Charles in person BEFORE peter became a nurse, since that is when the crash happened. nobody really knows exactly when peter met Charles, so we're left to speculate.

if we go by what we've seen though, we're left to assume that peter acquired "ethereal projection" from his mother and "precognitive dreams" from Charles. but don't ask me how charles knew peter was there.. that one makes absolutely no sense to me.

If I follow correctly, the current belief is that the only time Peter used a power which can't be accounted for by one of the other heroes' known powers is the time he saw Nathan's crash, correct? I mean, when he went to the future and saw the virus, it was clearly time travel. When he went back to Charles' loft in the finale of season one, he himself said "Am I dreaming, did I time travel?" I don't see anything in that exchange that suggests anything other than time travel and invisibility. The only power Charles showed was saying "I know you're there Peter." As for the crash, where does this "ethereal projection" idea come from? Am I missing something? If Peter went to sleep after everyone left, and immediately dreamt about the crash which could have been as low as only a few minutes in the future, it would still be Dream Precognition, which iIthought was what everyone believed Angela's power was. Please fill me in!

Peter used a form of AP. It wasnt possible that it was time travel because he was passed out. Hes used it twice actually. The other time being at Adams loft

It could be a possibility, although an unlikely one, in the situation of Adam's loft that he managed to return to an almost identical point at that of which he left. I don't believe this to be possible for the bit in 1x23 "How To Stop An Exploding Man" simply because he was passed out and Noah woke him up.

peter never left adam's sight

I think the contention with the Nathan car accident scene is Peter got the phone call when he woke up and odds are Nathan didn't fall and call Peter right away. But, the writers can make up any reason for that -- peter was new to his power etc etc. BUT, to bring it back on topic, he had no met Charles yet.

I don't see how that suggests AP though. When Hiro stops time, moves around and then restarts it, he often appears to be in the exact same spot, as when he got flowers for Charlie and later made her Origami cranes. He also appeared not to have moved when he grabbed the swords from White Beard's men when they attacked Yeako. I think just because the time travellers appear not to move is just due to the faulty perception of the observers.

My two cents:

I think Charles had astral projection. People with the same powers tend to be immune from that power - so neither Hiro or Peter can freeze the other, Peter can see Claude when he's invisible. Charles was the only one to see Peter on the rooftop - Simone, Angela and younger Peter had no clue he was there, presumably because he was invisible. We know Charles didn't have invisibility because he told Peter that he thought that would be a nice power to have.

So I think this means astral projectionists can see anyone other on the astral plane - invisible or not. This also means that invisibility works for the astral self (because no one else saw Peter), and that Peter used two powers at once!

This also leads me to conclude that Angela's power must be either precog dreaming or having weird psychic attachments to her family members - as I don't think Peter had met Charles at the time of Nathan's crash, so presumably that was his mother's power that he was using.

Good catch! I agree.

Yeah I also assumed Angela Petrelli has that power. I mean she talked to Nathan at the end of Season One as if "it was inevitable" like she knew exactly was going to happen to Peter (even though it didn't end up happening!).

And how come Charles Deveaux didn't get healed by Lindermand so he wouldn't have to die? Sorry if this is off topic, but it kind of urks me.

I wondered that.

Maybe they did not get on? Maybe Charles did not want to be healed by a criminal big shot and have to owe him something big in the future?

That's a possibility!
I think he was just angry at the fact that they were going to go along with the whole "heal the world" plan for Nathan, and Peter sacrificing himself. Who knows though!

I think Charles, like Keito Nakamura, would be wise enough to know when his time had come.

Also, I don't think Linderman would do a lot of things just out of kindness. He'd have wanted something in return, and either Charles had nothing he wanted, or, more likely, he didn't want to give it.

I guess we all can agree that Peter has at least one dream related power, if not two (but actually the only time he was not sleeping or unconscious while using a projection-like power was in Adam's loft and he as well might have access to this power awake, so I'd say it's only one power).

He clearly had this power very early, as he demonstrated it in "Six Months Ago". I go along with the most popular theories that it is either Angela's or Charles's power. In fact I prefer the latter, due to the "meeting" of Charles and Peter in "How to stop ..."

So what could this power be? Let's figure it out:

- Clearvoyance is an aspect of it: Peter has experienced several more or less acurate glimpses of the future.
- It's not as pin point as, for instance, Isaac's paintings but features symbolic aspects: Peter's vision of himself exploding differed a lot from what actually happened. He even saw Isaac and Simone, though both of them would die before the explosion. It did, however, not feature Sylar. So it rather has a prophetic/ symbolic character than a precognical.
- It's not only future related as Peter experienced a past incident in "How to stop ..." - but actually clearvoyance can refer to all planes of time: past, present and future.
- It's connected to dreams or the status of being unconscious or at least absenth minded.


I don't think astral projection covers these feats. AP in fact means: leave your body and manifest your spirit somewhere else. Peter is clearly doing more than that.
I'd rather go for prophetic visions. Being asleep or unconscius may simply be a trigger to this power, as drugs were a trigger for Isaac's. The incident in Adam's place then simply would be the first time Peter has access to it while awake. Makes sense to me, regarding the "powers are triggered in situations of great emotional stress" theory: he was struggling as he wanted to travel back to the future to save Caitlin.



I don't thin his power might be related to music - but he would make a good jazz musician, at least by appearence, don't you think?


We don't know that for sure. The "Sixth Months Ago" episode still leaves me confused about when the accident happened - but I don't think it was after Peter's party but some time later. So Peter could easily already work for Charles and have adapted whatever power he has.

That was my thinking.

I was wondering why he would not want more time with Simone. But he would not want her indebted to Linderman, which is probably what Linderman would want. And I think Charles also managed to keep the Company, Linderman and abilities completely out of Simone's life as she knew nothing about them, so a miraculous recovery might have been tricky to explain!

i second that.
Charles was not very into the bomb-plan and maybe he an linderman had a fight about it and when charles became sick they were not on speaking terms with each other

What I don't get about that idea is that Charles says "I know you're there, Peter" then "Invisibility, I always wanted that one" That dialogue, to me, suggests only that Charles is aware of Peter even though he's invisible. He doesn't say "I can see you Peter" he says "I know you're there" Also, if it's Astral Projection, that would mean the ability allows you to project backwards in time as well? I thought Peter explained it himself when he said "Is this a dream, am I Time Travelling?" As we suspect he dreams the future, not the past, that suggests to me he was using Hiro's and Claude's powers, not something Charles had. I agree with you about Linderman completely, there's no way he would heal Charles without wanting something in return. (On a side note, I wish the writers had found an opportunity to make Linderman scream: "Come and get one in the yarbles...if you have any yarbles!"

Re: Linderman not healing Charles -- what bugger me was that in the "edler" picture hes in a wheelchair... on his own roof. Now, I totally can believe that they were at odds so Linderman wouldn't heal him, but being great friends Angela and Charles still spoke, BUT.

If a man won't heal me I WILL not invite him over to my house and smile for a picture!

I did find it weird Linderman wouldn't heal Molly, unless they were using Mo and manipulate him to the company's side -- BUT, now we have the magic blood.

So, here is a thought. What if anyone who has a version of the virus, Linderman can't heal. But then of course how could Charles use his power? unless it makes ie weaker and weaker as he dies (his version) and Peter, being an empath -- charles can sap energy off of and really its a totally fan wonk, but man.. I hope it is explained. You can say it was Peter all along controlling the dreams, but Charles said "Like I told you.. the love speech" and he said that to Peter in a dream.



This was always my impression.

This baffles me too. I think we once arrived at the conclusion here that Peter had indeed astrally projected himself back to a living Charles Deveaux, of course completely unintentional and without the trace of an idea what he was doing, and when he arrived there, he made himself invisible by reflex - or rather, tried, since you can't make yourself invisible when you haven't got a body. Charles must have found that one very amusing. *pats Peter*

So you're saying Peter was Astral Projecting into the past, to which only Charles would be abe to see him, but Charles couldn't see him because Peter was also Invisible? I don't follow. Why couldn't Peter just be Time Travelling and Invisible? Why does it have to be AP in the first place? It seems to me if something he does can be explained by an existing ability, there's no reason to speculate about another one we have no evidence for...

The way I saw it was that Peter fell unconscious on the ground and then had a sort of dream-like, out of body experience when he went and spoke to Charles - I've chosen to call this astral projection. It was never specifically shown that he left his body behind - but he was unconscious when he hit the ground and Mr Bennet had to wake him up afterwards - that's not like any time travel we've seen before.

And then there's the fact that only Charles could see Peter. Why would that be? I've used the same powers thing to explain this, because I don't see any other reason for this - especially as Angela was there too, and we know she's well versed in understanding powers. Why would Charles be able to see Peter and Angela not be able to?

As to why Charles would be photographed with Linderman - I see no reason why he wouldn't. Both men probably understood each other very well. Charles knew Linderman would ask for a favour in return for healing him, so Linderman never offered.

I would think Linderman actually could heal the virus (pure guesswork), and he was there as a standby for Molly in case Mohinder's blood did not work. But in order to have an effective virus storyline he had to be killed off.

I agree with MrsGoogly.

(1) Peter fell prone and awoke in the same spot (and body position) later. We've never seen time travel work this way.

(2) Peter has never yet used two of his powers at the same time (apart from 5YG). This, for me, is the main point in the matter.

(3) Like Mrs Googly said, if Peter had indeed been invisible, Charles wouldn't have seen him - he never saw Claude feeding the pigeons in his rooftop either, after all



Oh, but we have strong evidence for the existence of Astral Projection. Not in season one so much, you're right, but Peter skipping back to the future after leaving Caitlin there, seeing himself and Caitlin picked up by the... initials people, and then going back with a leaflet while never leaving Adam's sight - that was definitely Astral Projection.

I do agree that the whole "Invisibility. Always thought that would be a nice one to have" makes little sense in the rooftop scene in HTSAEM, but time-travelling and invisibility combined just doesn't sound like something Peter would have been able to pull off in his current state.

I always interpreted that scene as rather dreamlike, even before I read any theories.

Good point!



This would be my whole thing about Peter using Charles' power. Peter was invisible, yet Charles knew he was there, and knew it was Peter, and knew he was invisible! So I think Charles can recognise anyone on the astral plane - which would make sense, as he should be a master of his craft by now!

Are we even sure all of the founders even HAVE a power? I mean, not all Company agents are specials either

I'm fairly certain both Bob and Kaito said early in S2 that all of the Founders had abilities.

Yeah, I think Bob is mentioning that to Nathan.


Astral Projection wouldn't explain that he was able to pick up the leaflet and bring it back to present.

I always wondered since that scene, if Peter was able to combine several powers into a new one. Let's say he could merge his astral projection/ dream time entering/ whatsoever with Hiro's powers. This would explain what happened in Adam's loft.
The scene of Peter watching himself and Caitlin getting caught felt very dreamlike to me, it had a quality similar to his dreams in season 1.


I agree. I actually never thought of time travelling until I read it here.

It depends what Astral Projection is.

Not the greatest authority, I know, but didn't Prue from Charmed train her astral self to touch things and even fight?

She did, but that was for the combination with her telekinesis, IIRC.

I wonder if there is any comic book character with the power of astral projection, as this would be a rather good reference. I'm quite sure many X-Men with telepathy have shown the ability of astral projection. But I don't know if there are established rules.

Even if there are established rules, I think it's OK for Heroes to break them.

Nah, you're talking not only to a comic book geek but to a German - I like all my powers categorized, labeled and rule-bound.


OK, I'm kidding. But honestly: of course it is OK for Heroes to break whatever rule they wanna break. But as some stuff just is very well established among comic and fantasy fans - and a lot of those watch the show - this would only lead to their puzzlement.

The easy way out is coming up with a new name, which the viewers don't connect with something else. "Empathic mimickry" is such a case and I always appreciated this, as it is new and creative and also a perfect description.

Yes that could work.

I'm only calling it astral projection cos I can't think of a more appropriate term! Whatever it is, I think Peter got it from Charles.

That's why Adam says "impressive" when Peter showed him the leaflet. As one of the founders, he'd be familiar with Astral Projection, possibly through Charles, and was amazed at the amount of control Peter had (which again gives credit to the theory that Peter picks up all his powers at the same level as the one he got it from originally).

(Note: when we watched that scene, I must have had my brain switched off. I couldn't remember that it had happened afterwards. O.o)

MagnificoG,

Which power or combination of powers that you are aware of would allow Peter to time-travel to the past (or future), unseen and unheard, while his corporal body remains in the present?

Creator

Well, let's look at what we know about Peter. The opposite of Sylar, he uses his abilities for the most part in an instinctive, reactionary way, whereas Sylar's actions are from willpower and determined intent. Peter just "does" things, as when he stopped Claude from smacking him in the face with a bo staff on the rooftop. He hadn't even realized he had TK, yet unconsciously threw it up with no problems. Explaining the flyer in the warehouse, as I've stated before about Hiro, he sometimes disappears into the timestream, grabs objects, and returns to the exact moment he left, so it appears as if objects just instantly materialize in his hands. Of course we know he didn't magically conjure them, but to someone without Time Travelling ability (like Adam) that's exactly how it appears. Knowing these things, the way Time Travel appears to outsiders, and the way Peter unconsciously uses gifts that are nessecary, I don't see how it's impossible he sends himself back in time and triggers Invisibility. Charles clearly states that Peter is using Invisibility, so why would he do that if Peter wasn't using that ability. If it was Astral Projection (forget the fact I assume an AP'ed body would appear ghost-like or hazy) how would you make a projection that's already invisible...invisible? The only case I can see for the AP theory is that there appears to be a period in which Peter was unconscious on the ground before Bennet finds him. To me, though, I just got the sense he was in a bit of a daze from faceplanting the street, and unconsciously sent himself back to a point his godsend "knew" he needed to go to. Like when Hiro leaves Kirby plaza and goes to the eclipse in Kensei's time, or when he and Ando went to the loft 5 years in the future to the exact moment they needed to. Along with the abilities themselves come an unconscious instinct of how to use them. I think any possible delays in Peter's reaction time (as Adam claiming he was standing there yelling, or Bennet shaking him for a few moments) could easily just be Peter's disorientation due to a lack of conscious control of his abilities. So he leaves, and comes back to the moment he left, but then is dazed for a spell before "waking up".

Hi C, weekend duty again?

Time-travel and dreaming would allow him to remain in the present and travel to any place at anytime (maybe even dreaming alone if this is not restricted to the present).

The question is only can he have any physical reality when he's there? With Charles on the rooftop he needed to use invisibility, so I vote he had a real physical presence in this scene. He dreamed, travelled in time and became invisible.

This is almost exactly like in Adam's shop, where he never moved, but dreamed himself into the future, saw himself get arrested and this time brought something physical real back - a flyer.

For me these are instances of Peter using two or even three powers.

I feel a fry-up coming on . FM

FM,

What's a "fry-up"? Anyway, I always look forward to our conversations. You are such a blessing for our forum (and for me...send 'srooms ). Now, having said that, I'll respond.

Dreaming would allow Peter to travel anywhere and anytime. How he would have a physical presence while dreaming is difficult for me to accept. There's a reason that the writer's decided to throw the physical presence piece in. I think that it selects out the dream state and introduces ethereal travel or ethereal projection, simply because it "fits" like the proverbial glove. So, why re-invent the wheel?

It feels rather convoluted to introduce several other power possibilities to substitute for the elegant solution. Then my question becomes...why is it so difficult to imagine and accept that Peter might be using EP? And if he is using EP, how else would you expect the writers to express that and impress upon us what they are up to?

As for his using invisibility, he finds himself unexpectedly transported to the past and does not want to be discovered. If he doesn't realize that (except for Charles) he un-detectable, unfamiliar with what is going on and that he's having an ethereal experience, it makes good sense that he'd cloak himself in invisibility. Wouldn't you agree? And, as far as his EP visit into the future, he retrieves the piece of paper unthinkingly, unintentionally...not as evidence, but later shows it to Adam as proof that he had had this ethereal out-of-body experience. This is the simplest and most straightforward explanation.

And, I say all of this because it relates to Charles' power and how he's able to sense Peter's presence. Could they share this particular power? Or, does Charles have some other power yet to be revealed (and yet to manifest in Peter) that allows for this? Again, the simplest answer is: they share this power...EP.

Creator

Creator, thanks for the kind words. I've been EVS DROPing too long and missed the challenging discussions over in this corner, always steered by you good self.
(BTW a fry-up is a traditional English heart-attack meal of fried anything, including champignons. I have a much simpler version!)

So to business. "Dreaming would allow Peter to travel anywhere and anytime." Nice qualifier; we have definition. Now there's no need bring in space-time warping and more elegant as you say. But it's tough to stretch an "out-of-body" dreaming power (EP? what's that?) to a physical manifestation without invoking the possibility that Peter can call upon other powers whilst out-of-body.

Admittedly, if this were true the consequences would be crazy - Peter could dream himself somewhere/time, physically manifest and begin a new life, while still lying somewhere in the present having a dream. So yes, I would rather it all distills down to one power.

However, your explanation reduces etherel travel to no more than time-travel without leaving the present - sort of. Whew!

The problem I have with the "he simply time travelled and then returned to the exact same point of time" theory is the following: we clearly know, Peter has adopted a dream related power, may it be precognition, entering dream time, entering an astral plane or whatever. So, both incidents in question (meeting with Charles and picking up the flyer from the future) are definitely designed in a very similar way as Peter's dreams in S1 were (especially the explosion prophecy). So why look for a different explanation, when the show very obviously hints in this direction?

FM,

Here's the thing. (Hold still now...you might feel a little pressure, but I promised not to hurt you !) EP was just recently explained to me. It, ethereal projection, is described as traveling/moving in the ethereal state (requiring assuming one's ethereal body) on the ethereal plane...a state and a plane in-between the plane of reality and the astral plane (representing attributes of both). If I'm not mistaken, I believe prander may have shared this information with us. Impressive!

The implications of this is significant. Why? (I'm glad you asked !) Because, it would easily explain how Peter could time-travel into the past, the future, unseen, unheard and still interact with the physical plane.

Now, given this new information, I readily accepted that it was EP (and not AP) as that which I had witnessed. For you see, I was first convinced that it was AP (astral projection) that we were experiencing. But, as I came to understand, AP does not allow for interaction with the physical plane (which Peter clearly demonstrates in his AP-like visit to the future). The ethereal body accommodates the soul and acts as its vessel of transport on the ethereal plane to anywhere...anytime. One literally steps out of their physical body and into their ethereal body (sounds a lot like a 'shroom moment !) and trips! (...leaving their physical body in the present on the physical plane.)

See...told you it wouldn't hurt... ! And, I think being in two places at one time is extraordinary (very Dr. Strange-like).

Creator

Here's my topic... http://boards.9thwonders.com/index.php?showtopic=63268

I guess the question is, is there a degree of tangibility and whatnot involved in etheric projecting, traveling, etc.? Or does that require another power?

Guys - I just found the answer.



Because Molly found him using Clairvoyance. That was only possible because his body was still there. When he wakes/returns, he finds Noah kneeling beside him. Why would Noah be kneeling in the middle of an alley if Peter wasn't lying there, and how would they have found them in the first place? Molly would have found him if he was merely invisible... but if he'd time-travelled, he'd have been gone.

AGGHH! Peter was for sure gone?!? From who's perspective? From someone witnessing a person Time Travelling who leaves at 5:14:47, walks around, picks up a few oddities, then jumps back to 5:14:47.1, it looks as if they never left, but suddenly have weird stuff in their hands. We've seen Hiro do this time and time again. I say again that since we know Peter uses his gifts for the most part unconsciously, there's no reason to believe that Time Travelling and Invisibility would NOT leave him prone and dazed in an alleyway for a few minutes after his return. Furhtermore, Charles explicitly recognizes Peter as Invisible, not as an Astral Projection suggesting Peter was physcally present.

Okay, I get it - sorry, shouldn't post after getting up.

I agree that it might still be perceived as time travel, although Noah's shaking Peter awake suggests otherwise (not proves... suggests).

Still, that would mean he had just fallen prone. Let's assume he fell prone at 8:32:14... he'd have returned there the same instant, or Molly would not have found him (Hiro has travelled into the past before and then teleported back to the following day; he would have been truly gone during that time). I don't think he lay dazed for as long as it would have taken Molly to find him and Bennet to arrive there - which must have taken some time as well.

GS,

I'll stick with EP. It's one elegant power deployed unintentionally during times of high duress and it fits perfectly. I see no need to suggest time-travel plus invisibility, especially since Peter is not proficient in time-travel.

Certainly the writers would not have shown him accidentally time-traveling twice, using his invisibility each time and then returning with such precision that it would appear that he had left his body. Why, even Hiro hasn't demonstrated such proficiency.

Everything about this points to one and only one logical conclusion...EP. Add to that Charles' acknowledgment of him even while he attempts to hide invisibly and this is a Sylar moment (a no-brainer). For, it would make sense that Charles could perceive another with his same power (not powers). Why make it difficult? Why complicate this? Especially when there is such an obvious answer.

Creator

Good point. I think it's very obvious the writer's hint to a AP/ EP/ dream-time power (I really don't care that much how we call it) when showing these feats of Peter. Moreover Peter clearly lacks fine-tuning in all of his powers, why should he be able to use time-travelling that acurate? Leaving from and returning to the exact same point of time? Come on. He'd wish for that!

Yeah, by will. You are suggesting that Peter showed a great extent of control over a power he never used before and without even knowing. I don't buy that.

Noah's shaking of Peter obviously ends his vision/ dream/ whatsoever. Doesn't go along with time-traveling either.

I second that.