So is it evolution when Matt could do things like his dad does? Or is it Matt didn't know the true potential of his own power?

This is confusing and I'm more confused when Matt can even trap his dad in Matt's nightmare.

it's not that he's evolving, he just needs to learn his potential. His dad said the mind reading comes first then the rest comes floading in, so i think mind reading is just the simplest one to use.

Matts new power, lameoid.

I think this whole evolution of the powers is lame.

This means that everyones power has more then one side.

Claire, Nathan, Peter... everyone.

This overall leads to less characters.. less powers.
The writers screwed themselves.

No, it only means that powers just grow in efficiency (maybe not even every power, that's never been specified). Maybe Nathan will just grow to be able to fly faster. Maybe Peter will be able to use a bunch of his powers simultaneously, etc. Those are just a couple examples but it by no means that every character is going to get a whole bunch of new tricks. No one's screwed up yet.

100% agree, all his new power means is that he can read minds and project touths into minds. Most of the other charecters may never change.

And it also allows for the characters to become deeper. Matt has the potential to be much less one dimensional now.

Matt's ability evolved from being able to read minds to being able to control minds.

I don't think that the evolution of powers is bad, but I think that Matt's powers evolved WAY TOO QUICKLY. I mean, they just barely told us a few episodes ago that there was a possibility of it happening and then POW! It happens.

Same with Kensei. I'm assuming his powers went from regeneration to immortality.

I don't think his power is evolving per se. I think he's just discovering the extent of his power, like Maury said when they met, that the mind-reading was just the beginning. Although I do think it's odd that Matt is the only Hero to have inherited the same power from a parent - everyone else seems to have, as far as we know, inherited just some kind of power, not an identical power. Of course, we don't know yet what some of the other founders can/could do.

maybe now claire can cut off her limbs and sell them yeah?

Kenseis powers didn't change, logically it makes sense for regeneration to have some form of immortality. Regeneration seems like its to do with cells, and how they grow quickly enough to be able to replace the dead ones, even whe normally they are unable to. With growing old, its basically the same; but since those cells are constantly repairing and growing, in theory Kensei and Claire will never grow older then what they are now.

Just to echo what the brilliant minds here have already said.

A) Other character's powers don't have more than one side... why would we think that?
It was implied that this has always been Matt's power (although it basically contradicts 5 Years Gone)
C) Regeneration IS Immortality

when you think of kensei think of wolverine cause wolverine is suppose to be over 200 years old.

maybe Nathan can travel in space .. that would be nice to see

Not really though. Matt could scan a whole person's memories in 5 Years Gone (Hiro). He could rip out information the person didn't want to reveal (HRG). Matt's powers were definitely more advanced in that episode, he wasn't just about hearing surface thoughts anymore.

If Matt never met his dad, if he was never told the extent of what he could do, then it makes sense that only his mind reading powers would be advanced in that future.

he didn't know he could do those things, so he never tried, the ability was always there, I wouldn't call it "evolving"...his power is simply to get inside of minds however he just started out with the "reading minds" aspect...plus he had sufficient practice with trying to get inside Molly's dreams and being trapped in his Dad's nightmare...he was sort of forced to utilize more of his abilities out of pressure

I think they did not come up with the idea of Matt's power evolving before thinking about what could happen in the second season. That is why he did not display different sides of his power in 5 years gone. They should be careful with such things though. Otherwise everyone could be a Peter.

And yes, immortality/longevity ist just a side-effect of the regeneration ability and actually makes more sense than have them age as other persons. They did not have to interpret the ability like that, but it was one of the fathomable ways they could take it. So no discrepancies there.

If Matt didn't show those powers in 5 years gone doesn't mean he doesn't have them.

WTF? Sorry dude but evolution is inevitable (unless your a big intelligent design guy, if so, I'm sorry, I truly am), if not we'd still be throwing our cupcakes, it only makes sense to have their powers evolve, that's kind of a premise (sp?) of this show. Normal people EVOLVING and developing powers, did you not get that from the first season b/c it's kind of a big deal.

Your arguement isn't very convincing. What is negative about everyone's powers having more than one "side"? Is it the fact that characters we know from the 1st season have a whole new aspect to thier powers to display? I'm confused. How would this lead to less characters or powers (especially since the cast has grown with more people with different powers?) And finally, how did the writers screw themselves by adding new nuances to each characters "signature move" and exponentially expanding possibilities for all future characters written onto this show?

The thing about Matt's evolving power is that he had to (like many other characters) overcome his insecurities to realize its full potential. They throw the word evolve around a lot here, but that makes it seem like its on such a grand scale that it shouldn't happen so fast. The heroes are mearly developing their powers - when I look at it like that the speed at which Matt was able to hone his powers is not such a stretch.

hmmm... I dunno, I think they've always hinted at evolution in power.
Remember when Matt and Ted were breaking out of their cell, HRG told them that Ted could emit not just radiation, but energy as well?

Don't forget, Peter should be able to do this too.

I think of it like the person that found the strength to lift a car when their child was trapped under it. Matt HAD to do something fast or they all would have been screwed. he already had the power he just had to bring it out fast to save everyone.

Isn't the "spine" of Heroes evolution? I'm excited too see where this can go if we're blessed with that many episodes/seasons.

BTW. Matt defeated Sweaty Kreuger way to quickly & easily. He didn't even seem to know what he was doing. You could say his power is the evolution of a stronger version of daddy's.

Evolution isn't individual changes, but the gradual changes built up in the genome for a species over millions of years. The DNA of an individual doesn't just change and adapt. Matt's learning to use his power to it's true potential.

Evolution is his ability. Advancement is getting stronger.

Except Claire had her ability as a baby and it saved her from a fire, and she has still grown. Maybe she'll stop ageing at her peak.

Ummmm... he's not talking about the powers coming to be as part of the process of evolution. He's referring to the fact that the powers that people manifest are changing and becoming "more", e.g. Matt from reading minds to nightmare man like his pops. He probably should have chosen a different word to avoid confusion. But you seemed to have understood what he meant from the rest of your comment, so I'm not sure why you're knocking him for it.

It's nice that you feel sorry for people who think differently than you, very conceited and arrogant. Btw, I'm not an intelligent design person myself.

And I think you should do a bit more research into evolution anyway, because it doesn't work the way you seem to think it does.

Here we go again, regeneration IS immortality! Why is that such a difficult concept to envision? Heck that story has even been played many times before in Highlander for example.

Mike M/MI

Uh, nope. Claire was saved by HRG in the fire and didn't need to heal anything. That's why the Company gave her to him to watch. Remember, Kaito said something to the effect of, "IF she displays a power, we will take her".

Anyway, I don't think of this as Matt's (or anyone's) powers evolving, merely growing towards the full potential that was already inherent within the given ability.

I think there is a distinct difference.

Immortality: the person can never die!

Regeneration: the person can heal but have a weakness that they can die from -- Claire/Peter by foreign objects (wood/glass) inserted into the brain. They can only regenerate when the object is removed. I believe that without removal of the object their bodies would completely decay over time.

PS: I believe Highlander "Immortals" could be killed by another "Immortal" by cutting off their heads. Is that immortality?

Last night's episode was a great one for Matt. Greg Grunberg displayed why he is one of the best actors on the show.

Evolution mostly concerns populations over a long period of time.
The inherited characteristics of an individual are pretty much static.

The shows about evolution. *and stuff blowing up, and people dying of a virus*
Matt's abillity was originally thought to be just reading minds, but we discover its control over another individuals minds.
Matts' abillity was probably stronger than even his dads. Though maury had time to develop and have control of his powers, Matt's was naturally more developed (through evolution).
To answer your question, Matt's power was due to evolution.

Evolution in a power? maybe. But forsure, he found his abilities true potential (and maybe even the begining of his potential).

don't get hung up on the word "evolution". the show's concepts are so far from biological evolution as to be laughable (especially Mohinder's "healthy baby" crappola)

biology aside, Matt's power is indeed evolving -- it is changing, growing, becoming different, "unfolding" -- but so is everyone else's, apparantly

Well i suppose evolution tends to come off a little strong.
The main idea is that a living organism is adapting to the surroundings its inhabiting. In Heroes; the examples given do give a laughable example of progression of a species. But, thats why we're all here right? We wouldn't want to watch a show about someone losing their pinky toes, or anything of that nature.
But to the evolution remark, I take back the term "Evolution". And simply say its an extreme case of natural selection. supposedly...

QUOTE (isitmondayyet? @ Nov 6 2007, 04:36 PM)

don't get hung up on the word "evolution". the show's concepts are so far from biological evolution as to be laughable (especially Mohinder's "healthy baby" crappola)

biology aside, Matt's power is indeed evolving -- it is changing, growing, becoming different, "unfolding" -- but so is everyone else's, apparantly

uh no not Matt's nightmare it was Maury's they even said it when matt recognized it, i bet thats where Maury kept molly because it was the only place he could think of when he couldnt torment her in her own nightmare

No. There is two ways I can explain that they are pretty much the same.
Immortality is a person that dosent die from old age, but still can get hurt or even die. Regeneration is you can heal from wounds, and die if you had a wooden stick stuck in your heart.
So in a way, If your are immortality, which means you can never die (in your opinion) that means if that person gets hurt, that means they'll regenerate they're cells which is regeneration.

pretty sure immortality means you cannot die.
Mortality is defined by being susceptible to dying.
Dying is the physical process of a human body shutting down, a cease of functionallity mentally and physically.
Over time, we all know our cells degrade and we develop signs of aging.
We slowly die after we reach a peak in cellular growth.
Regeneration is a super accelerated form of cellular regeneration. Instead of slowly having their cells die and wither, the subjects body replenishes the missing cells.
Its like a sponge; except when a limb is cut off, another seperate entity isn't created.
Just because a sponge can regenerate its limbs doesn't mean it'll live forever, or can never be destroyed.
People always contridict themselves when they say an entity is immortal, they throw in limits and exceptions.
"if you stab them _____" or "If you remove their_____"
The fact is, mortals die and cease to be in the physical realm.
Immortals are the opposite in the physical realm/world, they simply cannot die or be destroyed/cease to exist by the means of a physical death
word.

QUOTE (kpaznmonki @ Nov 6 2007, 07:20 PM)

No. There is two ways I can explain that they are pretty much the same.
Immortality is a person that dosent die from old age, but still can get hurt or even die. Regeneration is you can heal from wounds, and die if you had a wooden stick stuck in your heart.
So in a way, If your are immortality, which means you can never die (in your opinion) that means if that person gets hurt, that means they'll regenerate they're cells which is regeneration.

*cough* Ted used EMP's in season one, as a little trick he could do, as an extension of his power. *cough*

Phew, that was one hell of a cough. So yeah, Matt's just exploring his power now. He's had it all along, but never imagined it possible until he was told it was so. It's pretty easy to see why he would think he only had mind-reading it, but once he was told, and he entertained the possibility, his skillset expanded.

PEople keep saying regeneration is immortality...


Didn't Sylar kill Claire in the future? She actually died...

Well a few things cause many here seem to mess things up.

- Matt was introduced as a Telepath not as a Mind Controller or a mix of both.

- Evolution of a power in a mutated form is called Secondary Mutation which enhances the ability of the power.
However, it occurs on the range of the main power and doesn't change the power from Telepathy to Mind Controlling (that's where the writers messed up!).

- In 5 years gone Matt was still a Telepath ONLY, otherwise he wouldn't have any trouble that Mohinder, Hiro, Future Hiro and Ando was behind a door in a other room. That means that if he would have the mind controlling ability his father had, he would just let them open the door or mess them up so they kill each other without getting his fingers dirty himself.

- Actually Maurys power is not really mind controlling but only a form of it because if it would be mind controlling he wouldn't need to create illussionary images in a state of sleep like a nightmare that are visible only to the person affected (NO IT'S NOT LIKE CANDICES POWER; It's a different one! ), he would just take control of the person without the need of images and the body host wouldn't be fooled to see a friend as an enemy, they would just see everything happening in front of their eyes in a normal manner (even what they are doing and to whom) but without being able to control their own body at all.

- The weakest part in the whole thing was that they let someone like Maury that had mastered his ability like ages ago, be defeated by a Matt who didn't even knew what he was doing.

- Claires ability is a different one than the one Adam has.
It's indeed Regeneration and Immortality.

That means: Claire ages slower than a normal person, Adam doesn't age at all.
Claire can be killed, Adam can't!

Claire would have been killed in such an explosion like the one in the white beards camp (Hiro found even the armor on the floor with dust everywhere), Adam couldn't.

- Immortality as mentioned above through a other poster could have an end actually when the head gets cut and seperated from the body (like in Highlander or the Vampire movies/series) or if the brain gets damaged on the center where the ability lies. However.. they don't showing it this way because it wouldn't be immortality anymore but more like Claires regeneration.

That's also the part I think that confuses everyone. Because normally even a immortal person is destroyable.

Anyway.. as in this series though Adam can't be killed, Claire can easily if you know what to do and how.

[quote name='Raekon' date='Nov 7 2007, 02:03 AM' post='542084'
Claire would have been killed in such an explosion like the one in the white beards camp (Hiro found even the armor on the floor with dust everywhere),
[/quote]

sorry to burst your bubble but claire did survive that little fiasco she had with ted back in texas

Sorry to burst your bubble but Ted didn't actually really exploded in such an impact.
It was only a small wave of radiation. Otherwise a small part of the city would be exploded as well and everyone outside the house + the neighboorhood would be gone as well.

Remember peters/New Yorks explosion?

In the white beards camp it was a totally different part of explosion as well.

Matt is a generation down the line. How do you know that his innate ability isn't stronger? I could kick the cupcakes out of a very well trained midget boxer and I'm only an amateur myself. There's a reason that weight classes exist. Maybe Matt's raw mental force is much greater than Maury's. Besides, it's a standard plot device that's used all the time.

As for the rest of your post, well, the arguments against you have been repeated over and over again. I guess we'll all find out in a couple of weeks, since the season will end at episode 11. :-(

My thoughts on the Regen vs. Immortal debate.

Neither Claire nor Adam are immortal. I believe they both just have regeneration.

Regeneration, as a by product, would prevent someone from showing the effects of aging. When we reach the age at which are bodies start breaking down (anywhere from 20-30 years old), what is effectively happening is that the speed at which new cells are produced starts declining. With regeneration abilities (the ability to produce new cells extremely quickly), that slow down never happens. They essentially reach their peak, and remain there. Regeneration means that Claire, Peter, and Adam will never die from old age, or the sicknesses and health problems that result from old age. They also recover nearly instantly from bodily wounds.

The only thing that seems to slow these people down, is if something is lodged in the head, for whatever reason.

If you remember, in Company Man, Ted did in fact explode right after Claire injected him. It wasn't a nuke, but it was still large enough to blow the door off the Bennets house, with a big poof of flames. If Claire's regeneration saved her then, I don't see how the argument couldn't be made that it was Adam's regeneration that saved him in the gunpowder explosion and not some immortality power.

If immortality means you can't die, then it is obvious that Claire and Peter are not immortal because they have died. Claire more than once. I have seen no evidence that Adam would not die under the same circumstances.

So to recap:

There are no immortals in the show (so far), and if there were, it would be an altogether different power than regeneration. There are three evidenced people with regeneration: Adam, Claire, and Peter. If we see Adam walking around completely alive, with a branch sticking out of his head, then that would be evidence of immortality.

I loved how Matt trapped Maury in his own nightmare. It reminded me of the Futurama episode about multiversal box portals, and they ended up with a box containing their own universe...

see q/a with Heroes writers below. (Taken from latest Behind The Eclipse)

That Guy Jason starts us off this week with a lengthy question about the classification of powers. "Finally, we're given a large chunk of info we can delve into! Maury Parkman's abilities began with mind-reading, correct? However, over time he was able to trap people in illusions, a key ability we've seen elsewhere, specifically in Candice. Now that we know that heroes can have more than one ability based on their evolution, and since you've let us know that people get the abilities they need when they need them, is it possible that all people with abilities can be divided into a few core groups, with all members of one core group having the potential to have all the abilities of that group? For instance, Maury, Matt, and Candice all share powers that exclusively deal with the mind's perception of things. Is it possible that given time and need, Candice could read thoughts, or that Matt could create illusions on Candice's level? What implications does this have for the other heroes?"

You're right on about Matt, Maury and Candice. They all have various forms of telepathy or mental manipulations - some people include telekinesis in this as well. So, in theory - yes they could all develop the same powers if they concentrated and worked at it. We've always said we're just seeing the beginning of these abilities - all of them can grow and change and get more and more powerful.


There you have it.

Actually Maury told Matt something along those lines, that Matt couldn't trap him in his nightmare. Matt said that it wasn't his nightmare, it was Maury's. It was a part of Maury's past that he hadn't dealt with. Matt effectively brought Maury into his own nightmare and then left him there.

So Maury seemed helpless to attack Matt. It backfired. Instead of finding Matt's nightmare, he was drawn into his own (where he had left Molly). Remember he seemed completely stunned when he asked Matt, "Did you bring me here!?". Matt realizes all this and leaves Maury to his own doom. Maury realizes this and starts to panic when Matt opens the 'door' out of the nightmare.

Some people thought this confrontation was too short, but I thought it was amazing. It's exactly what I thought it should be.