To start, I just want to say that this post is not a vent on how silly the whole Mohinder antibody thing is. I've already done that and don't need to go into the nth iteration of that. It is not a post describing how upset I am that the writers have no scientific background, and are making a mockery out of biological systems. I've done that too, and even I know it's getting old. It's not even to try to get you, the reader, to understand why this aspect of the show is silly. I am writing this for one purpose, and that is to explain some of the biological principals behind the immune system, to show that Mohinder's conversion to a 'stronger' antibody is physiologically impossible. So, it is replacing the science fiction with science fact, if you are interested.

So, Mohinder took Claire's blood, injected it into himself and created a 'stronger' antibody to counteract the stronger virus in Niki's blood that is slowly killing her. In the minds of the writers, this seems plausable, if the virus changes then you can make a 'stronger' antibody and then voila, cure. Well, that's not how antibodies work, and here's why. I'll be using accurate terminology here, but will try to explain things in better detail, while attempting to keep this discussion within reasonable length.

An antibody is produced from a specialized blood cell called a plasma cell, which is generated from a B-lymphocyte, one of the white blood cells. Each plasma cells secretes only one specific kind of antibody, and cannot change to produce another. Once it has been programmed to make one specific antibody, that's it, no changing.

Antibodies are specialized molecules, essentially shaped like the capital letter Y. There are two tips of the Y called the Fab portion and the bottom of the Y is called the Fc portion. The Fab portion is the 'active' portion and attaches to the antigen (in this case, the virus) and inhibits it from doing its dreadful action. The Fab portion of an antibody is constant, and cannot be changed by the plasma cell--it is programmed from the DNA of the cell, which is set early in life. There are tens of thousands of lines of plasma cells (clones) to fight off the many tens of thousands potential antigens that exist in nature. If a new antibody is needed, then that line of cells are activated to start pumping out the new antibody.

The Fab portion binds to a specific portion of the antigen (virus) called the epitope. The epitope and the antibody bind together like a lock and key. They match so specifically, that if the epitope changes, then the antibody can no longer work. That virus has now become 'immune' to that antibody. That's exactly how viruses cause trouble with the immune system, they change their antigenic determinants (their epitopes) to keep ahead of the immune system. Once there is a new epitope, then that is essentially a new antigen, and the body needs to restart the immune system to find the antibody that will fight the new antigen off. This only works when that new antigen is exposed to the immune system, i.e. still in one's body. If the antigen changes in another host, and the initial person is not re-exposed to the new strain, they will not start making antibodies towards that new virus.

So, we have seen that the virus mutated and Moho's antibodies no longer work against it. That means that there is nothing his current antibody can do to now attack this new antigen, regardless of the infusion of Claire's super blood. The only reaction that the antibody can have is to make more, or make less, but it cannot change the Fab portion of the antibody (cannot change the activity of the molecule). That is set by the person's DNA. Remember the lock and key metaphor. The lock has changed, so there is no way that the key can now work. The only way that Mohinders antibody could work, was if a whole new antibody was produced, and the only wat that would happen was if he were infused with the virus so that he would be exposed to the new antigen and therefore start up the process of making antibodies towards that new viral strain. I cannot see how any agent, superblood or whatever, could change this into the way the writers are portraying. It's just not possible.

Understand? I know it's a bit technical, but that's the way the immune system works. I understand what the writers are trying to portray here, and I guess I'll have to buy it, but I don't want people to go away thinking that this is even a real possibility, that antibodies can change their activity, because it's impossible to do that.

On another note, Moho's got some real messed up blood now. If anyone has gotten this far, and can post a side by side screencap of the computer image he was using in the first part of the season evaluating his blood and antibody; and the computer image of the current episode looking at the same thing, I'll show you that Moho's got a pretty significant red cell problem. It showed that his cells are getting chewed up and destroyed, a condition which can be life threateining. (for anyone who is interested btw).

I'll monitor this thread to reply to any questions or comments. Once agian, this is not trying to bash the writers or the show, it's just provided to give out information to any who are interested.

Thanx for the explanation!

I thought, when I heard it, that it sounded fishy. It would have made more sense to simply use Claire's blood to cure Niki than to use the convoluted 'stronger antibodies' spiel they advanced.

I love it so much when you point out what's factually wrong in this show. Even though I'm not in medicine, even from elementary biology that I took in high school, I remember that stuff like this cannot happen.

But I suppose since this is Hollywood and a TV show, we can't really expect them to inject much realism into it (har har har.) No amount of antibodies would save us from that.

Thanks so much for the explanation. Stuff like this drives me nuts, too.

You know, since I already have to suspend disbelief to even watch the show, I can make a leap of faith that somehow, Mo did his thang, and cured the virus. If you can watch a person fly/read minds/regenerate ect without laughing at the show, then don't get upset when there is some fishy science. If you want to put your mind to clearing somthing up, help me convince people that Adam cannot regrow a new body if his head gets cut off.

that should be obvious as per yesterday's episode no?

although his brain would still be "alive" growing an arm or limb back is one thing but growing back a body from nothing ... i dont buy it.

No offence mate but, don't tell anyone this, its a secret. Its a TV show.

Yes, Imthehero and silentbobni, I'm aware of the fact that this is a television show. That's not the purpose of this thread though, to discredit the writing, but to increase people's knowledge base regarding the immune system. So, please, no more posts stating that point. Believe me, my education has provided me with at least that level of understanding.

Sorry, sarcasm is second nature to me. However I dont really think this belongs in the episode thread, more a general discussions topic.

I know it's a bit technical, but I'll try to explain in terms that you can understand. You see, this is fiction.

You're welcome.

But, um, quick question: People can fly, teleport, time travel, regenerate, burst into flame, turn into water, control electricity, blank memories, move objects with their minds, walk through walls, astrally project, bond with the airwaves, control technology, turn metals into gold, melt objects, hear long distances, become invisible, rip people in half, remember anything they read and perform any action they witness...

And you're bothered by ANTIBODY FORMATION?

I know it's a bit technical, but I'll try to explain in terms you can understand.

You see, texgrog took the time out to share with people how the immune system actually works.

You're welcome.

But um, quick questions: he's already stated that he's quite aware that this is a television show. You know, fiction? Stuff that isn't real? And he's been quite polite about saying that, and has, in fact, made it quite clear that he doesn't want any more posts reiterating this point?

You're bothered by the fact that SOMEONE WOULD TAKE THE TIME OUT TO EXPLAIN THINGS LIKE THIS?

Thanks for another insightful post, and some info for our lives Texgrog.

Also High-five to Kitsune, for a very tactful post!

*highfives theX back*

I was rather diplomatic, wasn't I? No wonder I'm a Model U.N. club member.

Here are the images of Mohinder's blood texgrog mentioned.

I though texgrog's was an interesting post. I learned something.

Sure this is a TV show. Despite that, if the writers had been on top of their game, they could make up something more plausible.

what if Mo put a drop of the virus in the mix of his/Claire's blood? would that allow the blood to build new antibodies?

yes, i'm wondering what bruno6969 is wondering as well... and tex, you never cease to amaze me in the awesomeness you bring with science and etc lol.. thanks!

also, when texgrog posts, always keep one phrase in mind:

"Do not feed the Troll."

it makes life easier for everyone if we just see what tex is trying to show us and go, "Oh wow, thanks for the science lesson tex!" and/or "But what if this or that ...?" rather than worrying about a few, ahem, people who would like to try and inform tex of something obvious...

Keep doing what you're doing, Tex. I and others learned something.

The Heroes apologists on this board will simply not stand for someone holding the show to a standard higher than... oh, let's say... a Carrot Top skit.

Sticks and stones, my friend.

Thanks, texgrog! Awesome post. Thanks for sharing the real science.

I kinda just decided to suspend my belief and accept this bad science since the whole antibody thing started last season. I know a lot of the powers don't make much sense when applied to real life, but I wish that the real-life science was at least correct. I guess it's easier to right whatever TV solution fits, though. So, I'll continue to accept it and keep watching as if the universe worked that way.

Yeah i started laughing when they said that yesterday. But no one seems to care about that stuff. Somehow healing blood revived HRG when he was dead. Huh, that was interesting too. But it is interesting to see a clear, simplified explanation of the immune system. It's so fascinating how the body works like that. Thanks texgrog for sharing your knowledge. I'd love to see more of these types of posts from you. Very interesting.

Yar, thanks Texgrog, takes me back to several semesters ago when I took a class on infectious disease for non-science majors.

It really would have made more sense just to use Claire's blood...I can buy the idea that her plasma can miraculously generate antibodies which are themselves capable of adapting their shape instantaneously to any antigens.

For the record, does it even make sense that Mohinder's antibodies can cure the virus in the first place? Last time I checked, simply injecting antibodies doesn't make a person immune to a virus...if it did, vaccines would be WAY easier to formulate. The virus's host has to actually produce his or her own antibodies to get rid of the virus, right?

Really, I think they should have just bypassed any reference to real science and said that Mohinder's blood contains special single-celled organisms that seek out and attack/digest the virus...maybe even saying that these organisms get nourishment from the virus and can reproduce asexually on their own in another host. As fantastic as it is, at least it doesn't corrupt legitimate factual science.

He probably is and so am I as heroes was at first at least loosely based on real world science. But apart from that you should stop bashing him and instead be grateful for him taking the time to write such a long and well written explanation. You would have trouble to find such a good explanantion in most if not all biology books.

Thanks. Really interesting and well written. Since you happen to know a bit about human biology, do you think you could do some kind of speculation of scientific basis for regeneration? Like, why it's impossible and how wounds do actually heal etc. I'm really interested in that, as it's one ability that _seems_ so realistic, I mean, healing wounds is something that actually happens(Unlike flying, creating fire or radiation, stopping time...), so why couldn't it happen any faster... :D

Dunno. I really can't rationalize why I'm so fascinated about regeneration, but I just wanna read about it, and how does the healing system actually work.

First off, texgrog, I don't know if you recall, but I challenged your criticisms of the show last season with regards to Mo's Ab's since I felt that it was a reasonable extrapolation within fictional license. This season, I cease to believe that the writers have maintained even that shred of a level of believable scifi, and drifted into the "we're just making stuff up to sound 'good' as the story demands". The irony lies in the fact that they didn't need to go there. Just leave Adam/Claire's blood as having "magic healing stuff" and be done with it. That is much more credible than the faux-scientific explanation provided in the narrative.

As to how regeneration and "magic healing" could conceivably work, I have some ideas, although they still requires a pretty big leap of logic and a certain amount of TV magic to work. My idea, is that Claire/Adam's healing is regulated by the presence of certain cell growth factors and immune factors which somehow does not go wrong. Since their abilities are "based in the brain" and transferrable, it means that they do not simply have cells that grow real fast, but they have other substances which trigger rapid, controlled immune responses (to be resistant to disease, etc.), reversion to stem-cell-like pluripotency (so that they can rebuild any part of their body), and an accelerated growth factor (so the healing takes place over seconds, not days/weeks/months).

Immune systems can be particularly robust, even to the point of causing disease themselves. Let's assume that our Heroes have just the good part.

The potential to revert cells to pluripotential states means that one could conceivably have the ability to regrow complex structures even in the absence of a similar tissues. Now, given the recent advances published in stem-cell creation research, some of these things are not as "out there" as they might sound, particularly if you give a bit of a nudge from scifi TV magic.

Accelerated growth can certainly occur (tumors), just not at the rate seen on the show, and not to that level of control. Also, there would be a question about where the energy/material would come from for such growth. A very valid question.

The anti-aging question would have to deal with the ability to heal via the above mechanisms in addition to another messenger that has much finer control over apoptosis (programmed cell death). Claire/Adam would be in a constant state of renewal. This would also help in controlling the accelerated growth so Claire/Adam don't just become "tumor-girl/boy".

Overall, the presence of messenger systems in the blood are the only explanation I can think of for the healing, taking into account the apparent ability to "lend" this ability to others. This ability cannot exist within the persons cells themselves, or at least not solely. Claire/Adam may have better capacity to take advantage of these healing factors in their other cells, but the ability cannot reside their. Also, since the ability is based in the brain, this would be another argument for the messenger theory. These healing factors would be produced in one area of the brain (as many hormones are in reality). Destroy that area, or remove a body part from access to the factors produced in that area, and the tissues die normally (this is why we don't have Claire II from her toe).

First of all, I would just like to say that I appreciate all the kind comments from you all. If you even learned a little about the workings of the human body, then it was well worth it.

Here are a few specific comments I would like to make



Thanks Kitsune for providing this. Ok, see in the bottom picture that the red cells are perfectly round? That's what red cells normally look like. In the top picture they are ragged. Now, I can't tell whether there is an additional blood component that is attaching to the cells, or whether the cells themselves are just abnormal. After being able to look at the picture better, I'd go with the former. But, if this was real, those cells coming from Mohinder's body would give me concern that he had a disease called thallasemia which is a problem with red cell production. He's the right race for that. It could also be sickle cell disease, or even some of the more rare diseases which cause either malformation of the blood cells, or improper 'recycling' of the cells. There is also an antibody mediated auto-immune disease which tears up the red cells and has this similar appearance under the microscope. Either way, Mohnder's blood has changed from 'normal' to 'abnormal'. I just found that interesting.

p.s. Again, this is for information only, I'm not griping about the show!



Good question, and goes to the core of my discussion, and would have to go into a lot more discussion about how the immune system works, so I'll try a watered down version. Short answer, No. Longer answer: in order for plasma cells to make an antibody, they have to be activated by a specialized cell called an antigen processing cell (APC) which (in the case of viral disease) essentially 'eats' the virus and processes the proteins. Those proteins (antigens) are then expressed on the cell surface. The APC then finds a T-Cell (the very cell that's affected by HIV--but a discussion for anothe time) which has specificity towards that antigen. The T-cell then finds the B-cell that has specificity for the antigen and activates it turning it into a plasma cell. So, just putting a drop of the virus in a test tube isn't enogh. It has to be processed by specialized cells in the body which starts a chain reaction, leading ulitmately to antibody production. I know it's a bit technical, and to truly understand this, you need to take a year of immunology in graduate school. So, I do my best to make it understandable.



I discussed this in the forums from last season: see here and here. The discussions are a bit heated, which is why I've toned down a bit. If this doesn't answer your questions, then please repost, and I'll do what I can to help you.



Mythos has done a good job of theorizing this. There was also some discussion about this topic on the Heroes Science thread in General Discussion. I'm not aware if that thread is even still around, but feel free to look there and see the discussions.

Oh, and for anyone who asks, and doesn't yet know, my basis in this knowledge relies on the fact that I'm a physician, so the information is pretty reliable.