I was wondering about this while reading a post of MrsGoogly's in the Haitian thread, but decided to take this here.


Did or didn't Angela know that Peter was still alive after the explosion?

- In "Powerless", she seemed very composed to hear that her apparently dead son was still alive after all, and was quick to give up on him again, telling Matt telepathically how to kill him if things went bad. (I realise this is not conclusive evidence - she's been known to put the lives of her family below the "greater good" before, but still, it may be a clue.)

- She must have wondered how on earth Nathan got to the hospital. There were people at the reception who saw Peter - even if the situation was very hectic, someone must have been able to give a very basic description of the mystery guy in burned clothes who'd dropped off Kentucky Fried Nathan and then vanished.*

- Would the Company - i. e. Bob - dare to keep Peter a prisoner and not tell Angela? If they did, someone have mercy on their souls!

These were what caused me to believe that Angela knew all along that Peter was alive. That she told Nathan to get over it is still very much in character - she didn't want him to keep looking, keep hoping.


Yet, in the future episode, Peter is told by the officer that he's "a dead man" according to their files. Why? Because he'd been declared dead when he didn't show up again? I don't think he'd have died of the virus, since his RCR would probably prevent him from catching it.


* edit: Oh! Since Bob and Elle were in the hospital at that time, and the Haitian was near, he could just have erased the staff's recollections of Peter. Bob did tell Niki they cleaned up after themselves. So, forget that point.


What do you think? Did Angela know? Any better evidence?

I assumed Angela thought Peter was dead, just going on her reaction to Nathan and her (seemingly) genuine grieving early on in S2. She struck out at both Nathan and Kaito when they mentioned Peter.

But I don't understand how she did not know he was alive. Not only does this display an astonishing ignorance with regards to both Ted and Claire's powers, but I thought the Haitian worked for her. And I thought the Haitian erased Peter's memories and put him in the box on his way to Ireland. He wasn't working for the Company either. Was he really working for Adam ...? The box with Peter's ID in it was all connected to Adam - the ticket to Montreal, the note from Adam ...

I'm so confused!

I totally forgot about the Haitian... but he said, "your secret is safe with me", and that implies he wasn't planning to tell anyone.

He seems to play a pivotal role in this though - how did he end up sick in Port-au-Prince? It doesn't seem as if he was particularly active for Angela. (But this isn't about the Haitian.)

Regarding her ignorance about Ted's power - that can't be disputed. It's plain to see that she didn't know Peter would be immune to the effects of his own radiation. Whenever it comes to Peter's chances of surviving the explosion, she mentions Claire's powers - but I always thought that was rather naive. If Claire had been up there with Peter, she wouldn't have regenerated, unless someone later tried to find every particle of her in a few square miles of New York.



But her grieving - I also forgot her stroking the photograph of Peter when nobody was watching, so she probably didn't know. It could be argued that she knew he was alive and simply missed him, but the scene was a little strong for that.

GS,

It would seem that Angela would have expected Peter to survive his own godsend. She's familiar enough with HEB's and their apparent immunity to the harmful effects of their own powers. Add to that the knowledge that she knew and even mentions that, thanks to Claire's gift to her son, Peter is certain to survive the otherwise lethal blast. It is possible she believed him lost. But, it's hard to accept that she'd believe him likely killed.

Then there's is the Haitian. Would he have allowed her to believe her son dead. Is he more loyal to the Company, Angela or Peter? We are expected to believe that during the four months of Pete's Company incarceration, the Haitian never revealed the whereabouts of Peter to Angela (his higher authority). It's hard to believe that Angela did not know or expect Peter had survived the blast.

Creator

I was wondering if this was significant. I wonder if he vanished after dealing with Peter because he himself had the virus and just didn't contact Angela at all - thus ensuring she thought Peter (and maybe the Haitian too) was dead. But then, how did the Company know the Haitian was in Port-au-Prince?

I'm with Creator on this one.

Angela's been around enough Heroes to know that the owner of the power is immune to that power. And, as Creator said, she said to Claire that Peter should survive because of her power. How on Earth does she think Nathan survived when Peter with his regeneration didn't?



She blamed Nathan for Peter's death. Why would she do that if she knew Peter was still alive?

I'll get to your points in a minute.



"None of this would have happened if you'd just stuck to the plan."

We all interpreted that to mean she was talking about Peter's death. That doesn't mean she was. In fact, given everything we know now, it's highly likely she wasn't. It's more likely that she was talking about the fact that Peter and Adam were on the run. And that the Company was going to have to "take steps."

Now, back to the Golden one.


Angela's one of the Founders. It's highly unlikely that she was kept out of the loop regarding Peter's survival, capture and subsequent escape.

She has to have known how it is Nathan was healed.

Anything she said/did around Nathan is suspect, because the number 1 rule at the Company is secrecy. You don't tell anyone, even family, what you do/did.

Peter was listed as "dead" in the future for a couple possible reasons. The first, and most likely, is that he actually died when the virus was released. The second, less likely, is that he's been missing during that year. (This would be explained by the fact that he time jumped.)

Yeah, that last bit makes me think she really thought he was dead. The whole scene with Nathan. She lies a lot, but in there, it seemed she wasn't.


But I still wonder why she didn't just tell Nathan and Claire in s1 that Peter wouldn't be affected by his own radiation power and rather told them he would heal. I already thought back then that this notion was rather ridiculous.

Synch:

Yes, I always thought that Nathan's healing would have been quite a giveaway. Nathan miraculously healed overnight, and a photograph of him and Peter gone - that should have been obvious.

I do hope so much that one of the first things we'll get next season is Peter/Nathan confronting their mother and getting some answers... (whose validity will still be disputed...)

Future Angela? Yeah, I think she really did.
Present Angela? I doubt it. Everything I've seen hints that she knew he was alive, but had to keep it from NAthan. (Not that keeping major secrets from family seems to be a problem for her.)


Without Claire, he would have survived the actual explosion, since it appears to be an explosive emission rather than anything else.
Could he have survived the after-effects?

Ignore my earlier post on this point. I just found the scene again. You're right, she does seem to have blamed Nathan for Peter's death.

There's an easy answer for this, however.


She had to pretend that she believed Peter was dead. That includes the entire gamut of emotions- including, obviously, blaming Nathan for his death. "If you'd followed the plan, he'd still be alive."

Again, nothing she said, especially nothing she said to Nathan can be completely trusted. She's one of the 12, and was a willing follower of Adam and then of Linderman. Secrecy is the paramount rule of the Company- and that includes not letting anyone know you have a secret.

Sorry, our posts overlapped. I went back and edited mine.

Since his clothing didn't suffer that badly - a lot less than Nathan's, who was considerably further away - I say he would have. I always understood that he was "the eye of the storm", so to speak, and the explosion emanated from him, from his skin, and wouldn't affect him. Ted burned Claire really badly, remember, and was just fine. Even if he didn't explode all-out, like Peter, there would have been some reddening or minor burns.

Ted seems completely immune to his own powers - ever tried holding a glass with boiling water in our hand?

It's one of the things they changed after the unaired pilot, when it was the terrorist, not Ted, who had the radiation power. His hands were badly burned after he pulled a similar stunt with a glass of water. Ted remains unaffected, and so does Peter. Claire's power has nothing to do with it.



Yup, I completely agree!

Still, the way I feel about the scene in Peter's apartment looks as if she was genuine there. But that's purely subjective and might be contested with season 3.

Wait until Visitor27 gets here.

True. By "after-effects" I was actually thinking of the chain of events caused by his power, but not actually part of his power. Although, now that I think about it, an explosion of that calibre probably would have instantly vaporized anything close enough to hurt him...

I think they were just trying to reassure Claire. Not positive about that. Plus, it's possible that Angela didn't fully understand what that explosion would do to Peter. (We know, because we saw Ted go, at least partially. Angela didn't.)


As far as whether or not she was real or faking the emotion? I tend to think she was faking, because she's got such an excellent track record of having believable, but fake, reactions. That's just IMHO though.

Hm, I didn't think about vaporization. But it would fall in the same category as heated glass in Ted's hand, just on a slightly larger scale.

With all the times they showed Peter shirtless in season 2, they could just have gone all the way and kept it believable by showing that his clothes didn't survive the explosion But I guess they didn't want to feed the Petrellicest faction quite that much.

To your second point..:blargh:

To your first point...what I was initially thinking of was that Peter was standing where a large amount of heavy objects had the possibility to land on him once he caused the explosion. However, it seems unlikely that anything close enough to do so would have remained in large enough pieces to hurt him.

Hm? I don't get what you're saying. What heavy objects? Standing? Ah - you mean if he had caused the explosion on the ground?

Okay, then what Angela says makes more sense! But I agree, if he'd been on the ground, everything would have been blasted outward, away from him.


(Incidentally, you can say "to the first point" in that context? Cool. I need to stop marking that as a mistake in classtests then. I always thought that was a germanism...)

Yep. That's what I meant. If he'd been on the ground, there were buildings and that weird stair-sculpture thingy.


I don't know if it's "proper" English, but it's something I've been saying all my life, so...

So if the next student tries to throw that one at me, I can tell him, we're not in Iowa!

See, I saw he as shocked and then she gets emotional. I don't see how people say she doesn't seem to give any apperence of emotion, perhaps Cristine was being too stuble.

We also have to remember odds are they didn't tell Cristine if Angela knew Peter was dead or not and Cristine seemed to think and was playing, according to interviews, that Peter was dead. It also plays well into her arch. Upset over Peter's death seems to effect all of Angela's actions. She slaps Kaito when he talks about her being responsable for Peter's death, she doesn't care to be put into to jail beause of "all the terrible things she has done"

Angela had regrets before so something has to have changed for Angela to be so regretful she feels she needs to be punished. She still believes in the plan, she says so to Nathan, so what is it? It can only be Peter's death that has sent her to her place in season two.




If Angela knew Adam had escaped why didn't she mention it it Katio when they are talking about "Who is out to get them." Kaito and Angela seem at a lose, "so you think this is from one of us." I never thought they knew. She even says in her head, when Matt first reads her mind, "Because we did something bad and someone wants revenge."

Also: Angela is pretty shocked, and gives very little emtion, yes, but once she is told that Peter is working with Adam is when she gets highly emotional, it could be a delay reaction, but still. AND THAN, it is then and only then that Angela, after two seasons, starts to tell her tail, willingly - she finally helps and tells Matt and Nathan where Adam is going. Angela saves the day, the first part -- and honestly I find what she did the one heroic thing she has done. I know we al love Peter, but if Angela knows the hold Adam can have over people, and Peter's powers -- she also knows what that virus can do to the world -- the only choice would be if Peter can't be stopped, to kill him. She's telling Matt how to do it, unfortunatly I believe

Angela AGAIN has the wrong info and doesn't know that its the certain place the head or the whole head. I think she says what happened to Peter with the glass and is making an eduated guess -- same thing on how Ted's power works. People with ablities are known, I'm sure to be dangerous to themselves. She never saw Ted, so as far as she knows having Claire's abllties would help him. I actually liek that not everyone knows everything. Even Claude didn't know how Peter's power worked and its makes sense that you may have to learn how something works over time. If they all instanctly knew everything it would seem odd.

I don't understand why no one believes that people within the company can keep secrets from each other -- they aren't the most trust worthy people - why wouldn't they have their own agendas. Linderman seemed to be trying to get the upper hand over Angela by "kidnapping" Nathan and putting a "hit" on him -- all to get control over Nathan I'm sure. Angela is hiding Claire, and I believe she was -- why go to all that trouble to have the haitian take her to "give her right back." Not to mention: The Haitian tells Clarie she can't see Peter because Peter is being watched by the company. I think that shows Angela was hiding Claire -- also the reason she didn't want Nathan to go see Claire. It would connect Claire to her.


Bob tells Niki he is trying to clean up Linderman's mess. He tells Peter he is keeping him "hostage" to keep him from "blowing up the eastern seabord." This would make me believe Bob is "anti-bomb" plan -- now if this has always been the case or is a new thing because it FAILED, I don't know. If Bob is Anti-bomb why would he tell Angela where Peter is. As far as Bob is concerned Angela was using Peter to make the "bomb" plan go through (I honestly think she didn't know Peter was the bomb and when she did it was too late and she believes things can't be changed) Why would Bob tell Angela anything about where Peter was. It sure didn't look like he told her Adam escaped. And as far as we know Angela was tied up sitting by Nathan's bedside.

I'm sure once Nathan was healed she must have suspected something. If she found out it was Adam, we don't know. Maybe she started to have hope Peter was alive, maybe her power would seem to tell her he wasn't and sometimes having hope after four months is just too painfull. It would seem Angela was packing up Peter's stuff for the first time -- I'm guess Angela was doing what she does best: moving on to not have to feel the pain.





I really don't think just because Anglea is a founder she knows everything about powers -- I like that she doesn't. Every power is different. Elle sure feels pain from her power when she's wet, right? I don't think they have ever met a Ted, but Angela sure has met an Adam. Angela is not a scientist. and she's not a worker bee, she I'm sure does not read every report that comes through the office. EVen linderman wasn't around primatech for HRG to meet him. Bob and Kaito seem to be more hands on. I'm sure everyone had their jobs, but I digress. There is no way she knows everything and I like that. I think its realisitc.



Nathan changed the plan and Peter exploded over a body of water, she can't know what would happen. Again, as far as she knows he's gone and I think dead.


And about Nathan being found. Perhaps at first Angela had hope that Peter did bring him in, she after all does tell Nathan they are looking for him -- also we don't know how long Angela has been in the hosptial -- she's wearing different clothes (and hair, lol. They couldn't get her a wig.) I like to think 24 hours only, still. She waited and no Peter. I think Angela coming to the conclusion Peter was dead came over time. as far as she knew the future was all set out and now the plan was changed -- it could mean Peter is dead. Afterall, why would he not be at Nathan's side. And who knows what lies Bob told her.

I like to think they told the world Nathan and Peter were in a helicopter explostion over the hudson River, how else could they be looking for Peter "offically"

*sorry about the spelling, my spell check is on the firtz. I hope I answered all thr questions. It a long thread, how could I miss it.

And I love it! Can't wait to talkn to you all more.

Very good point!

I really wonder whether Cristine Rose was told. It's such an important plot point that I can't imagine they didn't tell her how much she know (a simple "she knows/doesn't know" would have been enough). On the other hand, I don't see her acting as emotional in any respect - maybe that was Cristine just being very guarded, which fits Angela perfectly, so either interpretation is possible.

I would agree. I was just trying to make a point. In fact Cristine said that she and Adrian did ask quesitons when filming the first episode to see where they were at and according to Cristine -- Angela believes Peter is dead. And as an actor it would be the only way to play it because its an active choice that brings conflict, struggle and angst.

I think Angela was pretty upset, she just was in denail and held it in - like Angela does -- but it was there. I even read a transcript where someone wrote in "Angela is surprised" so its not just me. I can't see any other way of this working.

I'm glad you liked my Bob reason, I feel it is the one that has the most weight in my argument.

Cool - I read the same transcript, and like you, I thought, "wutt?"

I always saw her as shocked.

I actually went, "I knew I wasn't crazy." She always looked shocked to me, same when she see's Nathan alive, but with Nathan I figured she was half shocked, its not like she'd never seen it happen before.

Synch,

We agree. I don't think that all of the original 12 (the Founders) can be cast in the same light as Angela. Some, I believe, are very different from her and Daniel (Charles or Kaito for instance, seem quite honorable). Yes, they are all very secretive, and rightfully so (they belong to a secret society! ). I imagine you would agree with this view.

As with my first post to this topic, I too think that she had to believe that Peter survived the blast. It was his godsend that provided the explosion and he is an RCR as well. It's hard to imagine that she would believe otherwise.

V27,

I am certain that Angela, because of the symbol, knew that Adam (or one of his faithful agents) was behind the killings. For he was the one they had turned on...locking him away for thirty years. Plus, it was his symbol that was written in blood across the pictures left behind...signaling they were marked for death.

As far as Angela saving the day, she is consistent with her actions. Thirty-years ago she and the others sought to stop Adam from releasing the deadly Shanti #138. She is still trying to thwart Adam's efforts, even if it costs her her beloved Peter.

If Victoria Pratt knew how to kill the RCR, it's safe to say that Angela might have known as well. Angela never looked for an "invasive object interuptus" when Peter was "killed". She could have revived him had she used the knowledge she had. Because of her personal experience as an RCR with an "invasive object interuptus", Claire knew to look for that, Angela didn't.

I do agree that the members of the Company kept secrets from each other, Certainly Angela did, as well as the Haitian. And we know that Daniel was doing his own thing, unbeknown to many in the Company. Some discovered (Noah for example) the bomb plot. But, only a handful really knew what was going on (like Charles, Kaito, Angela, Daniel, Arthur and Candice). Why, I don't think even Bob or Thompson was aware of the bomb plot.

Nathan being healed could have resulted from an encounter with another healer, like Dan. If Angela knew about the attributes of the RCR blood, she would have gone to Claire to save her son and Claire's dad. Adam had not revealed what his blood (or that of an RCR) could do for another. It was one of his many secrets, I suspect.

Creator

Maybe the correlation Future Angela/Angela is a clue here. Angela knew, logically, that Peter probably hadn't died, but still she had no idea where he was. It would be interesting to know whether or not she suspected her co-founders. But by the time of the outbreak timeline, one and a half years had passed in which he hadn't seen or heard of him, so by that time, she had convinced herself that he was dead.

(Incidentally, it would be interesting to know where Future Peter was in that timeline. Was he killed by Adam after releasing the virus? Adam would have known how Peter could be killed...)

GS,

I always thought that Adam would kill Peter. He would have too. For, once his true motive was known, Peter would turn on him!

Creator

Creator, FYI Thompson knew about the bomb plot he was involved you just need to watch the scene where he is talking to Nathan. Nathan says something to the effect of you want to blow up New York and Thompson says "yes, we do."

I think if Angela knew that Peter was alive she might have thought that he might as be dead I'll never get to see him again.

fernajen,

Thank you! I didn't remember Thompson's conversation with Nate.

Creator

V27,

If she knew, why didn't Kaito.

ANDO: (subtitled) Sir, will you tell me what this is about?

(He looks around the rooftop.)

KAITO NAKAMURA: (subtitled) I am going to die. This message is clear.

ANDO: (subtitled) Who is it from?

(He steps further away from Ando, still looking around the rooftop.)

KAITO NAKAMURA: (subtitled) I don't know. Could be any of them.

ANDO: (subtitled) Them?

(Kaito reaches the other end of the roof and still he looks around.)

KAITO NAKAMURA: (subtitled) All of them ... are very powerful.

And why would Angela lie -- she seemed generally concerned when she asked Kaito to see the death sign. And again, if she is lying, why does she know and NOT Kaito? I think the show has gone out of its way to show us the symbol connects all Heroes, it is not just Adam's symbol, perhaps he brought it into the group- (and Tim K says its older than Adam, but that is really not the point) The Tattoos (Niki and Peter) Claire draws it on her notebook, the Haitian wears it around his neck, Molly draws it when she "dreams" of the nightmare man - aka Maury, Peter draws it in the hospital room, Molly's eyes, Arthur's law firm... on and on and on -- it is a mystical part of the 'specials' life. And, Angela and Kaito know it is a sign of death, perhaps because the group use to use it? The symbol is bigger than Adam and to Kaito and Angela seem to represent the group in general, I don't find that as evidence at all.

Now here is when Angela comes in:

ANGELA: Let me see it.

(He shows her the marked photo. She takes her photo out and the two torn edges match up perfectly.)

KAITO NAKAMURA: I do not take death threats idly.

ANGELA: Someone's playing a trick.

KAITO NAKAMURA: Are they? Charles Deveaux. Linderman. Your husband. All of them. Dead. Now there are nine.

ANGELA: So you think one of us sent these?

KAITO NAKAMURA: Yes. For the pain we cause. The people we have killed.

And later when she thinks no one else is INSIDE her head, she says:

ANGELA: (v.o., thinking) Because we did something terrible, and now someone wants revenge.

If she knew it was Adam and she was talking to herself, why didn't she say "because Adam wants to kill us." I truly believe Kaito and Angela thought they were being killed for ALL the bad things they have done. To Kaito and Angela, putting Adam away was a good thing, not something terrible.




Yes, to Angela there is no difference, but it still doesn't mean she was doing the right thing for the greater good, like she thinks she's always been doing. Peter over killing all those people, as one of that 97 percent of people who died (I can only guess, I have bad luck) I thank Angela for sacrificing one person, who just happen to be her son, for all of us. Just because we LOVE Peter doesn't mean she didn't not do something Heroic. Being a hero is putting your feelings aside, for others. That's pretty much what she did.



Victoria left the group a long time ago and she said this:

VICTORIA PRATT: I knew blowing your head off was the only way to be sure. (She ****** the rifle and points it at him.) Better late than never.

The only way to be sure, sounds like they never tried it. So, perhaps Angela thought it was possible, but with out proof, she wouldn't have known, BUT if she did (because I agree with your bottom part too) there are many many reasons why the group would choice to keep Adam alive, from the punishment fitting the crime, to nostalgia (killing a friend no matter what they have done is hard) and they wanted to keep his blood for 'save keeping'.




Yes, I totally agree. But, in your theory is also shows that Angela doesn't know everything about specials.

Thompson had a conversation with Nathan in his office, in The Hard Part:

NATHAN: Linderman doesn't have a grasp on the situation, Thompson.

THOMPSON: And why would you think that?

NATHAN: All the pundits think I'm gonna lose. And this morning my brother tells me about a fella named Ted Sprague -- ring a bell?

THOMPSON: We know all about Sprague.

NATHAN: I don't appreciate being kept in the dark. Especially not today.

THOMPSON: You're nervous.

NATHAN: Nervous? You want to blow up half of New York.

THOMPSON: Yes, we do.

Ding, ding, ding -- sounds pretty self explanatory to me.

But, sure I could believe Thompson, Linderman, Angela and a few others (since later on Angela says this:)

ANGELA: Yes. Well, they're not just Linderman's. A lot of people put time and care into making this a reality. Myself included.

Yes, I can believe PERHAPS that the company wasn't involved, but I always got the impression it was. And the ones like Kaito, stood back, because they felt they couldn't stop them, but wouldn't be apart of it.

It sure seems like Bob was one of them -- it seems unlikely being within the company he would just stand by, but he doesn't really have a power to stop them and it also seems like Linderman and Arthur were his bosses. Still, there is also the fact that "cleaning up a mess' could also have to do with the fact that it 'failed'. The plan wasn't to just blow up a bomb, anywhere - so now that it didn't happen Bob comes in and does damage control -- which includes keeping Peter in a prison and as I suspect (in any scenario) away from Angela and her schemes of 'using' him.




There is the fact that Angela I suspect, didn't know where Claire was or else she would be the first person she went to. I'd think after Kirby Plaza HRG and Claire went off -- and as far as Claire knew Nathan was dead and she didn't know she could do it.

I think there are many reasons Angela may not have had access to Adam's blood. It might have been considered selfish by the Company to use it for personal reasons (after all its about a greater good, not their own) Getting blood from Adam now might be considered to much a 'risk' of flight by him. Perhaps if Bob was against the plan he wouldn't give her any to punish her for her for what she did. I just can't imagine Adam, the manipulator that he was, wouldn't use his blood to gain "power' over the 12. They after all felt invincible. And if they died, Linderman couldn't save them, it also adds to his cult like god- like image as number 12 in the disciplines of 12.

V27