During the trip with the twins and Derek, Sylar several times exhibited flashes of his I.A., leading me to believe the virus does not fully prevent the use of (at least) natural abilities. For instance, when Derek saw the headline featuiring "homicidio" and raised concerns, Sylar stared at him with a fragmented, jerky tick-tock sound in the background, as if his gift was functioning in a patchwork fashion. He then stared at Maya and Alejandro as they used their gifts, showed a semi-resistance to it, while instantly realizing they both had power. Vintage Sylar. Even before that, he had already killed Candice and began digging into her skull with a sharp object, something he had (presumably) only done once before, when he killed Brian Davis. Every time after his first kill he probably used Telekinesis exclusively for surgery. Why would he be so confident of the techniquie and be surprised at not being able to use her gifts if his I.A. hadn't been guiding his hands? He manipulated Mohinder expertly at the apartment, raising his hand in an "I'm going to smash you against the wall with Telekinesis" gesture... again, vintage Sylar, saying and doing what "works". Jumping ahead to "Powerless" we saw Niki, who also had the virus, lift a large beam to rescue Monica, something a skinny, powerless Niki should have been unable to do, it was shaky at first, but then enough of her gift sifted through to save Monica (and perhaps her?). So while I believe the virus prevented Sylar from using acquired gifts, it still enabled enough his own natural one through that he was able to successfully take both Candice and Alejandro's powers, to be used in S3. I think the choppy tick-tock sound was the gveaway, how about you?

Regarding candice, I doubt he got her power, but if he "did his thing" and expected it to work, it must have either required only a brief analysis of the brain (since he didn't know he didn't get the power until he tried it, and he wouldn't be able to IA analyse it, assuming he didn't have his power), or he ate some and expected it to work. Regardless, I think candice's power is too game breaking for Sylar (see the 5YG future), and especially since he will be harvesting new powers ASAP in S3, I doubt they would want him to start off with somthing as strong as Illusion.

My personal thoughts are that his IA is now ingrained into his personality, to the point that even without his actual "power", he is still able to put pieces of the puzzle together quicker then normal. He is still a smart, manipulative, crazy quick guy on his own. The same way Peter always acts the hero, Sylar acts the smart guy.

I like that, it makes sense. His power is a reflection of his innate nature, and has also helped reinforce his natural tendencies over the years. I still think a bit of the power seeps around whatever blocks the virus sets up. there are specific sounds used whenever TK, Telepathy, Hiro's power, and Sylar's I.A. are used, and I don't think they would throw that in there without it being a clue.

Why do you think this? At different times, we have heard both Sylar and Peter's voices go deep and echo-y. This led people to believe both were using Eden's power, but they weren't. The writers said that they did the vocal effect in those cases for "coolness," not for a hint at power use. I'm not saying that he couldn't use his IA then, I just think visual or aural effects aren't always helpful in determining things like that. Beware the "coolness argument."

If I were to simply guess, I would say that Sylar did not get Candice or Alejandro's powers. It's simply a guess. Illusions in the hands of Sylar would be ridiculous, I think. Who would ever be able to fight him? It seems like overkill, and I wonder if the writers had Sylar kill Candice in his weakened state simply to keep him from acquiring it. Additionally, I'm sure Maya and Sylar will encounter each other sometime down the road. That would be very anticlimactic if he was resistant to her power thanks to Alejandro's brain.

Also, it seems silly to me that the virus would block all his powers except sometimes his IA. I don't believe it when people try to argue that Sylar's power is so special it's just always there making him so awesome and resistant to everything and wow. I think Sylar is just smart and clever even without his power. His power is an extension of his personality, like every other character's power. He may not have even realized his IA was malfunctioning until after he tried to use Candice's power. He's probably grown so accustomed to looking at brains and knows so much about them based off of his past examinations, that maybe he really thought his power was guiding him. IA seems so vague and passive, it makes sense that it would be hard to identify when it may be giving a boost.

Given that IA is his primary power, and given that everyone who has been infected with the Shanti virus completely lost all access to their ability...

It, frankly, seems a ridiculous argument that somehow Sylar broke the natural laws the writers put in place with the virus. The sounds were his attempts, not his successes.

To be fair, Nikki will most likely be breaking the laws of the virus as well, so it shouldn't be said the virus is bulletproof until we find out what her deal is.

?
She may survive- but that just requires her to have found a second way out. It doesn't, necessarily, require that her ability somehow save her.

I think the point was that she showed strength by lifting the beam despite having the virus, implying the blockage of powers is not absolute.

Perhaps.

It also could've been normal human/adrenaline strength. It happens in real life.

I just don't want them to show anybody "breaking through" the barriers of the virus. That weakens and ruins a potentially interesting subplot.

I don't really remember her lifting the beam. I thought she shifted it, barely, enough for Monica to get through... I'll have to rewatch that scene...

Adrenaline, that's a good point. It's possible she wasn't displaying strength when she moved the beam, but it seems strange they would choose that as the method of rescue. I also agree that sound effects are not indicative of anything. But, despite the voice-echo thingy with Peter and Sylar, I can't remember any other sounds that were out of place. Every time in S1 Sylar used his ability to "puzzle" out things, we heard the tick-tock, so if he was just using un-enhanced guile in S2 why would they still use the sound in a choppy manner? It reminded me of Matt trying to read HRG when he was next to the Haitian, the Telepathy sound was altered to reflect the struggle. Another question I have, is how about Sylar's enhanced memory, courtesy of Charlie? If you agree with the non-brain-eaters that Sylar acquires abilities via observation of the brain, would his restored super-memory allow him to recall what he observed while having the virus, thus activating Candice and Alejandro's abilities that way?

No. Because his IA is still an ability that is Shanti-blocked. They also played the "ticking" sound when he killed the guy who helped Maya and Alejandro escape- and all Sylar did there was kill. It has nothing to do with his IA- it's the Sylar Sound, and has been since nearly his first appearance.

Sylar being a sneak isn't a super power, it is who he is. The ticking sound is Sylar's theme, it comes out when he is about to do something evil, or when that evil side of him is budding it's little head up. When he realizes the twins have powers, when Derek shows him the news paper, these are all instances where Sylar was thinking as Sylar, acting like a double agent or whatever. The music lets us now he still is who he was.

I don't think it has much to do with him having some powers left.

I feel ya. It's very confusing, and I heartily agree there's specific sounds associated with characters, both Mohinder and Sylar have distinctive piano riffs. But there's no way you would ever watch Hiro close his eyes and shake his cheeks and hear the "time stop/teleport" sound effect only to see nothing actually happened. The choppy tick-tock sound, mixed with Sylar's confident manner in cutting open Candice, said to me that he's had a bit of his I.A. guiding his hand. I also agree that many people on these posts attribute almost godlike parameters to I.A., making it bulletproof in what it can do. I'm not in that boat, but I can't see how habit, or "I've done this like 10 times before" experience explains Sylar's confidence in dissecting Candice or (and presumably) Alejandro's skulls.

MG,

The playing of Sylar's theme music when he doesn't have his IA available is confusing, I agree. I also doubt that Alejandro's brain was violated, especially after Sylar realized that he himself was powerless. When he accosted Candice, Sylar thought he might acquire her power even as he had first acquired Brian's tk. It was then that, having failed, he also realized that he was unable to steal powers. It is as Synch says, the virus has stripped him of all his super powers.

As for Niki, I like Wrath22's take on this. Manifesting a new personality could and probably does represent Niki's saving grace. The new persona could be virus-free and super powered.

Creator

I definitely think that Sylar's powers were gone at the time due to the virus. However, was it possible for Sylar to look at Candice's brain when he didn't have powers and remember what it looked like so that he could "analyze" the memories of her brain when he had his powers back? I think that it may be in the realm of possibility, but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

ElectricShock,

I seriously doubt that Sylar could analyze Candice's brain, a very complex system (with however many of his senses are involved in his discovery and analysis process), much less retain and recall (memorize) that information for later use without the benefit of his IA.

Creator

Creator-

I, as others, was a bit thrown off by the music. It is also, as Leek mentioned, his theme for when he is "just being Sylar", aside from being his power at play. I have come to accept this as the reason to play the music and agree with you that he was stripped at the time.

Everyone-
As for the second bit involving Niki, I have started a topic to discuss the events in "Powerless" as she is concerned, and would love the input of all of you. I just ask that you keep it polite and on-topic.

-Justin

Justin,

You're so demanding !

Creator

I truely hope Sylar wasn't able to use IA while infected, because that was an integral part of his S2 plot. I expect they just wanted to play his Sylar Music to get us excited about his "mundane murders" since he had no cool powers to use.

When I said Nikki would be breaking the laws of the virus, I meant if she was coming back, there had to be a virus loophole, and if there can be one, why not two? I honestly will start to activly hate Nikki (or whoever Ali is playing) if they use her MPD as an excuse for her to "not have the virus" though. She is changing personalities, not bodies. The body would still be just as infected, because Viri dont care who you are, they just wanna kill you. This frustrates me to no end, and will be a huge blow to Heroes credibility if they start pulling unbelievable crap like that. Sure this is a show about superheroes, and your belief is pretty suspended, but for the love of god, if MPD can neutralize viri, lets start curing AIDS, right? Oh wait, yea, that wouldn't work, and is just dumb, lets not do that.

well the whole thing drives me nuts. There's limitless scary music/effects they could have used for Sylar during S2, as well as various methods and behaviors for him to display, but they chose the exact same ones they used all throughout season 1 when he was using his natural gift. I still think his super-memory might be something to think about. In the book "Saving Charlie", when Charlie first manifests her ability, she not only is able to retain every memory she encounters from then on, but the gift works retroactively as well. She is suddenly able to remember every event from her past in explicit detail, even events in her infancy that happened before her gift was activated. So there's a chance it will react the same way inside Sylar.
As for Niki, I agree there's no way a personality disorder could sidestep the virus. I think the virus just doesn't totally block abilities. (btw, were there any ziplocs in Candice's cabin out in the jungle? a to-go box perhaps? The twins never checked Sylar's pockets did they?)

It was also the sound effect they used during S1 when he wasn't using his IA. It's just the "Sylar Sound." It doesn't mean he's doing anything other than being Sylar.

well I hate to defend the "IA is God" position, because it's clearly a pretty limited ability, but I only remember the tick-tock sound when Sylar was observing/interacting with other people, which is a complicated behaviorial-system that his gift would seemingly offer great insights into. There are well documented gestures and methods of speech that give actors and orators advantages, a psycological system of back-and-forth with their audience. Wouldn't the ability to "see what works" in causing the strongest emotional reaction in people be an obvious and direct use of his power, and require the appropriate sound effect?

This sort of thing could be done by someone without a superhuman ability to quickly puzzle out the best gestures for dramatic effect, yes, but people seem to leave out the fact Gabriel was displayed as a skinny, nerd watchmaker from Queens, not some sinister bully with a long history of emotional coercsion.

"Theme" music can't be taken to indicate anything other than the character's presence. Like Synch mentions, it's just his theme, like Mohinder's musicals notes, which don't indicate anything other than Mohinder himself.

This echos other debates, like when Sylar used Eden's "deep scary voice" as an indication of persuasion (which he did not get). They are done for effect and are far too inconclusive to be used as "proof" of anything.

Similar to how folks belive the sound effect used with the tazer darts is "proof" that Peter stopped time, which I believe to be weak as far as evidence goes.

I agree the music/sound alone doesn't prove anything, but coupled with his behavior seems to confirm he had something of his old self going on there. Besides just the expert manipulation of the twins, Derek and Mohinder which some, including me, suggest is made possible by his IA, he also showed a resistance to Maya's poison. We've been noting since Company Man on Sylar's apparent resistance to damage and he showed this each time Maya poisoned him. Everyone else gags or screams and lies on the floor, incapacitated and choking, whereas Sylar is able to speak and issue commands/pleas to Maya, and also observe and comprehend that Alejandro has the gift as well. Don't you agree all of those things together suggest more superhuman Sylar than clever Gabriel?

We know Sylar is psychotic. Folks who are psychotic tend to exhibit some exceptional or unusual traits, like Ted Bundy who was always revered as a charming person, easily manipulated women into doing his bidding.

Gabriel had the requisite "profile" for a serial killer, and became psychotic, which started with the kill of Davis for his TK. His psychosis escalated from there.

During the first season, I find it easy to believe that Sylar's IA enabled him to learn about how to manipulate others. But the great thing about such a power is, once he's learned something, I doubt the power is needed to maintain that knowledge.

So, everything he "learned" about people doesn't just become "unlearned." He still knows how to do it, and it's a part of who he is now, regardless of the presence of IA. He's still psychotic, and he still killed during the second season.

His ability to talk while being poisoned by Maya is a combination of things - one, that Maya was struggling and learning to control it herself, so it may have been less invasive as when others were affected. And, in the car, wasn't Alej was right there, putting an end to it before it could be effective?

Since we know she eventually managed to control it, it stands to reason that control over her power was growing stonger throughout the season.

MG,

I love your sense of humor!



I'm in agreement here. That said, if Sylar's IA was unavailable at the time he was attempting to steal Candice's power, then his knowledge gained at that time would have been directly effected and thus limited to his "normal" powers of information gathering (however executed). So, his perfect recall, once reactivated, of the events surrounding Candice's demise would not yield enough information for capturing her power of illusion (I believe).

Creator

In the car, Sylar stopped Alej from stopping Maya, in order to kill the redneck border patrol and get them into America. Sylar did survive when all the border patrolers died, so he seems unusually tough (especially considering he was actually in the car with her), but it isn't like they would actually kill Sylar like that, so you could argue that it was just an bump in the script or w/e, but he did seem resilliant to it every time he was exposed to it (maybe moreso each time too?).

As for his memory, i never read Savign Charlie, but if she could recall events from her childhood in extra-ordinary detail, and if you hold that all Sylar has to do is study a brain, why would he be unable to recal exactly what he needed if he went through the required motions/study with candice? Not really a fan of either of those theories, just wanted to pose a scenario.

Imthehero,

This is a valid question. I would think that the information collection would be compromised without his IA investigating and analysis ability. His perfect memory would be a perfect recall less the IA experience.

Creator

Because he requires his IA in order to glean the info he needs from the brain. Since he didn't have his IA, he didn't get the info he needed. (Even if he thought he did.)

Charlie's memory will help him with a lot- but it can't help him remember something he never learned.

But if you guys argue that all he has to do is study the brain, wouldn't he have noticed he couldn't "look at it the same"? He didn't realize he didn't get her power until he tried it, meaning he must have gone through the same motions, the same exact everything, but it didn't work. It has been argued that he could look at a CAT scan and most likely be able to glean the power from it (not proof, just you guy's theory), but he wouldn't be able to do the same with a photographic memory? How in the world could his IA be powerful enough to decode neurons, but weak enough that he wouldn't notice it missing, nor notice he couldn't use it. If all he does is look at the brain, a memory should work as good as a picture or even the actual brain. It isnt functioning when he pops the skull, so there wouldn't be firing neurons to watch or anything either, so why wouldn't a memory work?

I favor the brain eating theory because if he was looking at the brain to glean info, he would have known instantly he didn't grasp it with his IA, it would be like looking at a tangle of yarn compared to a sweater, whereas if he ate the brain and left it up to his body to process it, he would have no way of knowing until he tried it, exactly what happened on screen.

You run into the same problem, on a worse scale, with the Brain Eating issue.

If all it requires is that he eat the brain, or even a portion of the brain, to alter his DNA to the point where he gets new abilities- it's a change he would be required to feel happen.

And, of course, there's still this:

on a side note...just HOW did he open Candice's skull anyway? A shard from a coffee cup? Glad my skull isn't that delicate..must be a reason for that, as no editing gaffes are allowed.
anywho... I say again, the flash of insight he saw when dealing with brian davis was repeated for the first time (NO TK surgery) only because he was confident via internal (ability-given) knowledge of how to move forward. To say he just went through the motions, with no power-driven knowledge egging him on, to perform manual, hands-on, highly-dexterous, impromptu-brain-surgery would be like Claire suddenly worried about a bruised shin in S3 (thus ignoring everything we've seen and read about the history of a particular character) why is it so hard to say it's possible the Shanti virus doesn't completely block abilities, anymore than it does screaming, running, murdering or crashing through glass dividers, all of whch we've seen these "desperate and dying" victims exhibit?

YEAH! You nailed it. (good luck with replies to that...tell me how that goes! stay classy, san diego! wait...my name's not ron..) but seriously, you're dead on I think. (and I'm not just saying that 'cause you're right!)

Because we've seen the Shanti virus. To imply that everything we've seen about the virus was a lie would kill the virus.

"Hey, guess what? Remember that big, bad virus that we watched completely block all powers, in everyone it infected? Turns out, it doesn't. Apparently there's a work-around."

It kills the entire threat of the virus. It makes Mohinder completely unnecessary. It destroys what little plot Sylar had in S2. It makes Molly a liar.

The Shanti Variant blocks all abilities. There's no 2 ways around that.

You know Zach said that he doesn’t believe that Gabriel has an original ability? That gift he has is a natural one he’s honed and sharpened over the years from being so alone with nothing but watches to occupy him.

I’m not sure if I agree with him though

Imthehero and MG,

Yes, I did propose at one time in answer to a challenge (How might Sylar acquire a power without killing the host?) that a holographic model derived from an MRI scan might provide enough information for Sylar to steal a power. That said, if Sylar was without his extraordinary information gathering and analytical skills provided by his IA, why would anyone think that he could perform the same super-powered feats?

And, that's all we (Synch and I) all advocating. Yes, once he has his powers, he can remember past events perfectly. But do you imagine that his pre-manifested (or in this case, his non-manifested) experiences would yield the amount of information his post-manifested experience would?

It would be like looking into the desert sky on a clear night at all the brilliant magnificent jewels, without a telescope. Even if you captured your naked-eye experience "perfectly", it would not compare to the enhanced experience, remembered perfectly, having employed super-powered (i.e., telescope assisted) vision. Agreed?

So, yes. Sylar's perfect memory, once restored, would provide him all the information captured at the time of Candice's murder. But, I respectfully submit, that this information would be "compromised" and therefore "insufficient" for Sylar to reproduce Candice's godsend.

Creator

Good point. I hope the writers remember this when they come to explain how Sylar gets the powers.

It certainly suggests he does something with the brain (I favour him eating a bit of it too) in addition to using his IA.

Remember that it's Intuitive Aptitude, not Analytical Aptitude. He just looks at (feels/smells/tastes/hears, whatever) something and the rest happens automatically via his senses. He may not even be aware it's happening at all, it just happens. He probably attributes his ability to know about watches, etc, to him just being smart.

That whole scene always had me bugged, tho. I mean he would have known he wasn't going to be able to acquire her power when he couldn't use TK to open her skull.

The only thing that would make sense to me is if he believed he couldn't use TK due to his weakened state, but that his ability to acquire a new power was not hampered. That would indicate that he never really realized that the means by which he acquires power is a power itself. Even if eating the brain is the method, the means would still be a power, since people eat sushi but never develop the ability to breathe under water.

But even if it wasn't, TK didn't work, so why would he think he could make illusions?

I suppose my only point here is that the scene was horribly inconclusive either way. Even the blood on his hands, as has been pointed out, doesn't support one theory or the other to any great degree.

Imthehero and MrsG,

It would seem to me that if physical consumption (aka, eating) of the brain would lead to the capture of the desired 'gift' that upon completing the task, Sylar would feeling the difference in his physiological make-up, even before attempting to use the newly acquired power. His IA (his "knowing") would have made him aware of his successful theft of godsend. I think that's a reasonable assumption.

But, like you, I too "hunger" for the writers to allow us see exactly what Sylar (Sir Gabriel, son of Grey) is doing to steal the precious gifts.

Creator

I can sort of see why Sylar would have thought he could still steal powers, despite having no TK. His wound could have hampered his powers - that was believable if untrue. What I don't fully understand is why he did not try out some other powers before he tried to take Candice's. She was annoying him, I guess!

I think he hated being powerless and dependent, and his predatory nature took over. He had been reverted back to pre-Brian, so he did to Candice what he did to Brian.

It does raise the question of the nature of IA, though. Surely if his IA was bust he would not have had the know-how to mess about with the brain and do what he normally does? Or maybe he's done it so many times it's just routine for him now.

But clearly his method of absorbing the power was gone, and he was unaware of this until he tried to use the stolen power.

everyone has posted great ideas, and as usual I find myself swayed mostly by what I want to be true... The truth is, like many other things, there seem to be conflicting evidence, and we're all left to our own opinions. That said, the position that the Shanti virus totally blocks abilities seems to depend on: "Believing that Sylar's Intuitive Aptitude is not responsible for guiding his interactions with other people, or perhaps has done so to such a large degree in the past so as to become a true aspect of his then-unpowered personality. Sylar was showing no amount of resistance to Maya's poison that couldn't be explained by something like her subconsciously preventing it from killing him, or just some natural non-superhuman toughness inherent in him. Niki shifting the beam to save Monica, and subsequent survival from the explosion was not indicative of ability-based superhuman strength, although possibly could have been adrenaline-based strength which seemingly activates via some other method." I think the proposition I've put forth is at least as believable as all of that. Molly and the Haitian were both bedridden with the virus, which would presumably indicate they were much farther "gone" in it's effects on them, thus removing their abilities. Sylar and Niki were both still hardy and hale, which speaks to me of having less advanced cases in which their natural abilities could still somewhat function.

MG,

I seem to recall a conversation between Niki and Micah where she tells him that she no longer has her super strength. So, while she's not yet bed ridden. she still is without her godsend. I think it's safe to say that Sylar base power (IA) is no longer available due to the presence of the Shanti virus even though he too is not bed ridden.

Creator

The writers have already confirmed IA as his ability. It's in all the official releases (including his Assignment Tracker Profile) as his natural ability.

OFF TOPIC-->to which I'm forced again to admit and plead, I can't get the tracker to work, is it true Sylar's has been updated to remove the "infusions of foreign DNA" tag? THAT, to me, would be a true sign the writing has decided against brain-eating...
anyway, I dare anyone buying the "Sylar had no power in S2" to back up:
"1. Believing that Sylar's Intuitive Aptitude is not responsible for constantly guiding his interactions with other people (thus explaining his expert manipulation of people in S2) or perhaps has done so to such a large degree in the past so as to become a permanent aspect of his then-unpowered personality.
2. Believing Sylar was showing no amount of resistance to Maya's poison that could not be simply explained by either Maya subconsciously preventing it from killing him, or just some natural non-superhuman toughness inherent in him. 3. Believing that Niki's shifting the beam to save Monica, and (as we all assume) subsequent survival from the explosion was not indicative of ability-based superhuman strength, and was perfectly within her normal potential (which possibly could have been adrenaline-based super-strength which seemingly activates musculature via some other method. 4. The fact that Molly and The Haitian were bedridden and powerless is irrelevent to the depth of the virus's blockage of their ability. (Once infected you are immediately 100% power-blocked, and then your normal, physical well-being will begin to suffer at varying, yet increasingly bad rates sometime thereafter.)" ?

Sorry if I'm coming across as snotty or defensive! You all have posted such great arguments, I'm trying to keep up with your wits and coat my posts as bulletproof as I can!

Here's a screencap of Sylar's tracker profile

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/0ea36d2...a919f78e1b.pjpg

thank you! It still has the "infusion" line... why were some f*&kbags claiming otherwise then? They probably had a direct line to Amy Winehouse's bathroom webcam and have been damaged goods ever since logging on 3 weeks ago!
BRAIN EATING STILL LIVES!

What they definitely removed when the Trackers were updated was the med history page (below) with blood triglyceride levels.
These were so high that brain "consumption" was almost a must - 527 mg/dl triglycerides - coronary anyone?
I think they were going this way but backed out after realizing how comical it would look.

Well, as I've been saying, eating a brain may not have anything to do with DNA infusions. Those infusions could have happened before he killed Brian Davis.

That doesn't mean he doesn't eat brains, nor does it mean he does eat brains. It's just that eating is no way to infuse the DNA from the thing being eaten into the consumer's own DNA.

It's not the most efficient way but some viruses can be ingested, survive to get into the circulation and enter the brain. So it's unlikely but given that this is Heroesverse, it's not totally unbelievable.

I’m no psychologist but I think #1 can be explained by his Narcissist Personality Disorder. From what I’ve read they are experts at reading others and using what they have learned to their own advantage.