Its been bothering me for quite sometime. I think I was ticked off when Mohinder called Niki an "innocent woman who may die" when Sylar stole the syringe with the blood to save her life.

"Innocent? Niki? She's a hit woman, a thief and an occasional prostitute."

Then I began to think of the high death toll on "Heroes". Some one dies nearly every week, usually extras. Then I remembered that in most comic books those who kill are considered Villains, at least in SuperHero comic books found in Marvel and DC.

But our "Heroes" are supposed to be just ordinary people with extra-ordinary abilities closer to X-men, yet not. There is no enlightened powerful moral seer/teacher as X-men's Xavier, just more or less plain people trying to sort out right and wrong for themselves and at least in Clair's case with the help of her family.

So now I'm trying to remember and sort out which of our Heroes have killed and why and can or cannot it be justified and are they truly "heroes"?

And can serial killer Sylar ever be a hero and how many lives would he have to say to make up for those he took or tried to? Or is that the wrong equation to make?

I hope you guys can help me sort it out.

Niki/Jessica

1. Kills 3 guys who were going to rape her and maybe kill her
2. In her Jessica Persona killed innocent Psychiatrist trying to help her.
3. Kills two FBI agents.
4. Tried to kill DL her husband and hurt Micha.

What keeps Niki from being a Villain is that we know she has this other persona who we both admire and are appalled at. Jessica ruthlessly protects and provides for Niki and Micha. We discount her killing the 3 rapist/killers because its implied they themselves were murders.

But the murder of the Psychiatrist and the FBI agents still leave, in my view, Niki in the minus column. Plus she tries to kill DL and ends up hurting Micha.

Niki/Jessica redeems herself however by sacrificing her life to save the innocent lives of Micha and Monica and thus dies a hero after all. At least, as I see it.

Nathan

Hasn't killed anyone. Am I right on that?

Niki didn't kill anyone that I'm aware of. You're assigning responsibility to Niki actions that Jessica did. For that matter, she turned herself into the police for the crimes Jessica committed.

I'm pretty sure the psychiatrist in the prison didn't die. It's very rare for a taser, even multiple hits from one, to kill somebody. And I think she was still moving when they found her and Niki "woke up".

There were 3 rapists/killers in the webcam garage? I only recall two, who were enforcers for Linderman. Which in hindsight, they were likely only viewed by Linderman as sacrifices to his plans for using Niki/Jessica later. Not that this justifies killing them, only that it was probably something Linderman expected and desired to bring Jessica under his "control".


As for the other Heroes and speaking of them in the present, who has actually killed someone with forethought and not by accident or self defense?

Issac killed Simone by accident. Issac's dead.
Ted killed his wife by accident. Ted's dead baby, Ted's dead.
Jessica killed a lot of people, maybe the most of anyone. Niki/Jessica are dead.
Sylar killed a lot of people. He's still alive and maybe reformed.
Noah has killed a number of people. That is part of his "job", I guess.
Mohinder probably killed the drug dealer. It could be argued that he is slightly mad at this point.

Nathan, Peter, Hiro, Ando, Matt and Claire have relatively clean hands.

Rebel: I can't believe you're calling Niki a murderer, even though you acknowledge that she had another personality that was doing bad things to protect D.L., Micah and even Niki, for that matter. Also, a few of the killer heroes can be deemed anti-heroes, as they kill for the right reasons. Sure, Future Hiro is a killer, but would you call him a villain?

http://heroeswiki.com/Death

I made a subpage listing all the deaths in chronological order since Genesis (meaning it doesn't list characters who died in flashback episodes/prior to Genesis), including the victim, the killer and the episode in which they died along with a body count of the season/show.

Also, check out this page for victims of several killers.

Jessica also killed 3 or 4 guys in the poker den while Hiro and Ando hid in the bathroom..

http://heroeswiki.com/Jessica's_victims

I think we can all agree that Noah isn't a hero in the classical sense. At the very latest, that becomes clear when he kills Iwan. He's morally grey.

The others who have killed can still be considered "good" as they were under strange influences at the time - Peter killing f!Nathan was under the influence of IA; Mohinder wasn't himself when he killed/enslimed those people; Niki killed all those people while "possessed" by Jessica; Maya didn't mean to kill most of the people she killed (although she did kill a few on purpose, so I wouldn't put her squarely in the hero department), and I still don't think Sylar will remain good beyond the season, or even the volume. He'll be betrayed by Ma and/or Pop, and that'll be the end of his redemption. As opposed to Peter, Sylar embraced the hunger for a long time, even killed while powerless - that makes him an anti-hero at best in my book, but not a good person again, ever.

Someone who definitely should be brought up here is Claire. She hasn't killed anyone yet - not counting F!Claire - but she was willing to kill Brody, and not in self-defence while he was trying to rape her, but later, in cold blood.

I forgot about that. She did try to kill him for attempting to rape her, the heavily implied other rapes he committed and to prevent him from doing so to anyone else. This certainly fits in with her later desire to fight "the bad guys" and not just be a victim. It's ironic that her Dad was more "leinient" on Brody that Claire was. Of course, death of personality is still a pretty severe punishment.

Actually, she didn't try to kill Brody. She's the one that pulled him from the car when she slammed it into the wall. She wanted to hurt him, to make him pay for what he had done to her and others, but she wanted him to learn a lesson, not die.

Was that in a GN?

Sorry, that's one of the things that make just no sense to me. You saw Claire, on the show, sweetly asking Brody to let her drive, she was completely self-assured in what she wanted to do, you saw her face, determined and set as she crashed that car head-first into a wall at top speed.

She never wanted him to survive that. And it's a miracle he did.


Edit: And before someone jumps at me demanding I accept the GNs as canon - you have to admit that there are storylines in the GNs that fit in with the rest, and that there are others that don't, or don't as well. One GN plot I can accept is that Future!Peter went nuclear in a Pinehearst building. Not happily, but it makes sense with the rest of the character (by the way, for me, Future!Peter has definitely passed his hero status through his actions too!). But if you see the scene I mentioned, look at Claire, look at Hayden portraying Claire, you KNOW that she never meant Brody to survive, and that just clashes with the GN for me.

Elle killed Ricky in Ireland
Peter probably killed some guards at Primatech
Matt killed Claire
Sandra killed Claire
Claire's killed herself multiple times (I guess this doesn't count )

Yes, it was a GN that confirmed it.
However, it was the way I saw it when it went down on the show as well. Claire didn't want him dead- she wanted him hurt. Claire doesn't want to kill, even in the Future she didn't particularly want to kill. She wants to hurt people.

I see no reason to believe she wanted him dead.

1. Elle isn't a hero by a long shot.
2. Yes, and that bothers me. It was for coolness factor and completely out of character. **
3/4. Because they knew she would survive. Counts as little as 5.


Synch: Agree to disagree...


** Does anyone else think there should have been a deleted scene à la Austin Powers in the mix for "Powerless"?
*phone rings*
WOMAN: Hello?... Yes, what's the matter?... Oh my God...
FAT KID ENTERS THE KITCHEN. Is anything wrong, Mom?
WOMAN (STILL TO PHONE): What - happened? ... Oh my God... Slammed into a wall using telekinesis? By a guy who wanted to release a deadly virus?
FAT KID: Mom! What's happened!
WOMAN, SLOWLY LETTING THE PHONE SINK TO THE TABLE: Your father is dead, Dennis. They just called from work.
FAT KID: No! Nooooo!
(WOMAN AND FAT KID BREAK INTO TEARS, HUGGING EACH OTHER)

You don't know, actually. You can't tell what her intentions were by just looking at her facial expressions. She just wanted to hurt him. If she wanted him dead, she wouldn't have rescued him in the Gee-En.


Neither do the other two, as they knew what would happen and how it could bring a better outcome (Ted/Doyle believing Claire died and falling for a ruse).

Out of character?
They were stopping him from fulfilling his mission to save the world.
IMHO, not out of character at all. In fact, completely within the character they've given us- a man who will let nothing stop him from single-handedly saving the world.


Aww.. Where's the fun in that?

For fun, see my edit.

Made my day

1. We don't know where Elle is going, so I'm keeping that out there. She was chasing after Sylar in s2 and Mohinder did call her a "hero" when she saved him and Molly and Maya.
3-4. The question was who has killed, and can they be redeemed. They did kill. And I guess they're redeemed b/c they knew it wasn't permanent and did it to achieve some good.
5. Suicide is the ultimate sin in several religions. I don't know why it matters that she came back from it every time. Especially since her goal was to find out if she would survive it.

I think mine stick.

EDIT HERE: And I just remembered that Mohinder killed Noah. I don't think they ever said if he planned on reviving him at the time he killed him. He certainly didn't know if it would work at that time.

Yes, killing Noah was something that seriously made Mohinder change into a grey area for me - even if he thought he was doing the right thing at the time (and would probably do it again!)

I pretty much think that, as of season 3, episode 7, nobody is left completely clean. Even Hiro has demonstrated a cruel streak by burying Adam alive.

Matt remains one of the "goodest" guys out there (I don't shooting Claire), but even him we've seen being evil in the explosion future, and he's demonstrated a willingness to abuse his power, too.

Most of what season three is about will is concerned with that, and in the end, it'll matter who chooses which side. And, hopefully, sticks with it. For the time being.

And there is of course my Maya (our Maya, Synch who killed:

Maya
1) 500 innocent people -- I think was the tally
2) plus her sister-in-law (who was hot, too) and her boyfriend.
3) Also the guys on the border patrol.
4)Her attempted rapists and the innocent illegals in the back of the truck.
5)The police guy--who came with Al to arrest her in the convent.
Anyone I miss? The police were alive.

I think Maya is the biggest unintentional killer in "Heroes" with the exception of Future Sylar.

Mohinder

I don't think he actually killed those people. The drug dealer might be dead, but the neighbor isn't. But they may be "altered"? And so might Nathan and Niki? What if they start turning into bugs?

Would that be the same as murdering them?

What if Maya's pregnant with his bug baby?

But Mohinder knew that Bob had Clair's blood so did he really think he was murdering HRG?

Hiro didn't kill Adam but yeah, GoldSeven is right, he's shown a willingness to go very dark.

Peter
We don't know if Peter killed any guards when he was with Adam at Primatech. Infact, knowing him, I think he wouldn't.

Was it ever proven that it was Peter who destroyed parts of NYC in "5 Years Gone"? or was it FSylar there, too? And is that a pattern were seeing with him?

Wolfbro7, Niki/Jessica is a murderer of the two FBI agents, if you reject the multiple-personality disorder theory. Its a useful tool for dramatists but there are only two very sensational examples of the disorder "Eve" and "Sybil". There is still a lot of controversy surrounding them.

If you accept the theory, then Niki is not a murderer but did commit manslaughter. Murder with extenuating circumstances such as mental impairment.

You'd have to extend that to Elle too, as a victim of child abuse who apparently never received counseling.

However, what I meant to bring up with this topic is the question of morality, crime and punishment and revenge and where it all leads.

Niki/Jessica heroically dies saving Monica and Micha--BTW I still hope Micha and Monica get to be brought back eventually and Monica, if not Micha as the only hero who wears a costume. But Niki/Jessica does pay for her crimes.




In Sylar's case, his punishment seems will come in the form of "the sins of the father are visited upon his children."

Noah is kind of a law enforcer/Specials CIA agent who kills in the name of protecting society? Though he works for a private agency, some private agencies in real life like Haliburton and other security contractors operate in not to dissimilar ways from Primatech. i.e. Blackwater.

Still, it is disquieting. The CIA was never allowed to operate agents in the US, that has changed. What do we give up in the name of trying to be safe from potential terrorists or Specials?

There seems to be a lot of grey going around. Only Clair, Hiro, Ando, Matt and Peter and oddly Nathan (odd because there's something sleazy about Nathan, despite being a good leader. In this he reminds me of Norman Osborne in "Thunderbolts" Comicbook.) seem to have clean hands on the show. Am I wrong?

I think putting a guy who is undying and leaving him to recursively die and regenerate is giving him a hell on earth where I personally would not go. And I've had a murder of a family member.

Speaking of comicbooks, there are four characters on Heroes who right now can be called "Superheroes" in the comicbook sense: Hiro, Peter, Clair and Monica. They have demonstrated the necessary restraint in utilizing their powers, also answering the call to put themselves in harms way in service to others.

Do you think I'm right on this?