I admit to just reading a book about female archetypes from a feminist perspective. Still, it did make me think- as most things do- about Heroes, especially after Cold Snap. Some female archetypes are less scary from the dominant male perspective or so the theory goes- mothers and maidens for example, like Angela and Claire. They've had real staying power whereas every other female character with powers on the show ( given the recent deaths of Traci and Daphne) has been killed off or otherwise written out. I'm curious, does anyone think there is a deeply psychological pattern here, or are good actresses just hard to come by and hard to keep? Would Claire do well to stay 17 forever?

Powerful women in their prime- are they a threat that needs to be burned in effigy again and again in the Heroes story line to reinforce the frail ego of the 'powerful' male? Perhaps this is not a pattern so much as a series of unrelated events based on nothing more meaningful than production considerations? If so is this an "unintended consequence" the story line would do well to address, in the same way the 'any adult with powers who's darker than Mohinder, okay aside from the Haitian whom we rarely see' consequence could use some help from the writers? Are such social concerns irrelevant to popular entertainment? If you have opinions about any of this please discuss!

I think it has to do with the fact that (whether we like it or not) the white male is the hero archetype. Think about any popular story with a hero of any sorts . . . 99 out of 100, it will be a white male. Star Wars, Harry Potter, Superman, Batman, Matrix; the list is endless. It's almost like the white male is a blank in which we can all (not all but you get the point) insert ourselves. Even as a girl, I find that I can easier relate to Harry than to Hermione.

I'm not saying it's right or that it's a trend that should continue but it's the way it is. It also has to do with who's watching the show because let's face it, when you think of comic book nerds you thing of Seth Green aka pasty white guy. So the female characters are usually going to be girls, mothers or femme fatales.

I agree, it's trend that we've been seeing on a consistent basis since Heroes began when it comes to women. If you're not a meek, damsel in distress you're not long for this show.

It seems like any female character that would potentially pose a great threat to upstaging or overpowering any of the male characters on the show are immediately written out or killed off.

Candice, Elle, Niki, Monica, Maya, Tracy, Daphne, Meredith - all had powers that could rival or overtake a good majority of the male characters on the show. And lets mention the non-powered female characters that have been completely wiped out as well - Simone, Audrey, Janice (who is recently returned), and Hedi.

This show really needs a good, solid one or two strong female characters introduced soon. The show is slowly turning into, for lack of a better word, a sausage fest!

I've thought about this too but I wonder if in Heroes' case it's not because they're scary but because they're boring (or rather the belief that they'll be boring). It's hard to make a main character interesting (male or female) without them being screwed up in some way and if they populate the show with all the adult women screwed up they really will be called on it by feminists and such. With all the adult men being screwed up nobody raises an eyebrow as long as the variety of 'screwed-up-ness' is big enough.

This is just me thinking, of course. I'm not saying I know this for a fact or anything.

EDIT: And don't get me wrong. I really want some strong assertive female role models on Heroes.

let me flip that to you.

how many male heroes have they introduced?
how many female heroes have they introduced?

you will notice that they introduce about twice as many females than males.

kind of normal that their death rate matches their introduction rate.

Males dont really have any more staying power ... they just write them off instead of killing them. Why? easy ... killing a women gives us a much higher emotional reaction and as such creates better drama.

i think this argument is bull.
just like the glass ceiling argument.

you have to look at this issue in a statistical stand point.

If you notice the only male story lines they have on the show now ... are males from season 1.

Uhm, huh? If we're just strictly talking about superpowered Main to Recurring characters since season one:

Males: Peter, Nathan, Sylar, Mohinder, Noah, Matt, Isaac, Ted, Ando, Hiro, Kaito, Linderman, D.L., Micah, Alejandro, Adam, Maury, Knox, Flint, Arthur, Usutu, Luke, Papa Grey, Bob, Charles,

Females: Angela, Claire, Niki, Eden, Meredith, Maya, Monica, Candice, Elle, Daphne, Tracy

Kinda lopsided...

My thing is that the women always fall into trouble when they get involved with men, which they always do. Daphne would have been fine if she hadn't been with Matt. Maya with Mohinder. Tracy with Nathan. Elle with Sylar. Everyone women Peter has ever even looked at.

Totally agree w/ that as well. It seems like with every Heroes relationship, the woman always gets the short end of the stick.

I think strong, assertive women on shows and society get a bad rep in general. It's been so ingrained in a large part of societies heads that men are suppose to be the strong, defiant, roughnecks and the women are the ones to be saved.

So when a female character is written to be strong, assertive or take charge, they almost always get the stereotypical "b****" label slapped on them with instant hate.

Personally, I've enjoyed the female characters on Heroes far more then males. They just seem so much more raw, emotional, engaging, conflicted, strained, and pulled through Hell and back.

Just this season alone we've had Luke, Arthur, Doyle, Knox, Alex, Flint and now baby Matt. Females? Daphne and technically Tracy even though she's the same actress who we had before.






What? You just contradicted yourself in one post. Let's take a statistical view of this:

Peter - Alive
Nathan - Alive
HRG - Alive
Haitian - Alive
Matt - Alive
Hiro - Alive
Ando - Alive
Mohinder - Alive
Sylar - Alive
West - Alive
Luke - Alive
Claude - Alive
Doyle - Alive

Ted - Dead
Matt's dad - Dead
Linderman - Dead
Adam - Dead
Isaac - Dead
Kaito - Dead
Charles - Dead
D.L. - Dead
Arthur - Dead

Females

Claire - Alive
Angela - Alive
Maya - Alive
Monica - Alive

Tracy - ?

Eden - Dead
Charlie - Dead
Elle - Dead
Niki/Jess - Dead
Monica - Dead
Meredith - Dead
Candice - Dead

Males: 13/22 = 57% are still alive
Females: 4/10 = 40% are still alive

I didn't count minor characters, ones without superpowers or kids. I don't know about you but that tells me they're more likely to kill off the ladies.

Monica isn't dead by the way, just written off.

I think there's been quite an overreaction to women's death on this show, basically as the percentages show, the deaths are pretty much percentually even, so I honestly don't get this whole "Heroes hates women" drama.

I do not think there is any conscious discrimination going on. But women and minorities do seem more likely to bite it on Heroes. It may be the case that the writer's, most who are straight white males, don't know how to best write for these characters and their departures (however that occurs). Writers write what they know, correct? There have also been several production issues (strike, scheduling, etc) that contributed to departures. But the writers did choose to kill them off rather than just writing them off. Is it all they know to do?

Angela is an exception b/c I believe she's been written pretty well since the beginning, but think back to S1. Niki and Claire were written much better than Maya, Elle (or Claire, Niki in S2). I think Moncia was written well, but we didn't see her long enough to really know for sure. Now that Bryan Fuller (who's gay) is back, we are starting to see these great eps with the women being written much better. And actually the whole of the episodes have been better. Well, at least for me.

Again, I don't think there has been anything intentional. I think it has all been situational. A little more diversity in the writer's room would not be a bad thing.

The thing is that when a woman character is no killed, she's written off! Maya and Monica, though not dead, are now totally unseen. Which leaves us with a dreamer woman and a regenerative girl. Which I don't hate, but that's the only girl characters we have, while we have those bunch of guy characters, Peter, Nathan, Hiro, Ando, Mohinder, Sylar and Matt, to name a few. And they've killed off many girl characters that would be totally awesome playing roles similar to the guys mentionned above. Daphne, Elle and Eden, had they stayed as long as those, would have brought their little awesome touch to the story. Claire and Angela are ok characters, but they don't have this fun, strong and sassy attitude those 3 had.

Anyone can just notice that girls get killed more often, and since they are actually least in number than the guys to start with, this starts to be a problem. I kinda want to see 2 or 3 new Charlie/Daphne/Elle/Eden that will actually stay around.. Maybe in volume 5, but then, if they introduce one cool girl character, I'll always be afraid they'll kill her off before the end of the season, because that's seems to be what they do...

EDIT: For the guy above me (and others): I don't think it's intentionnal either, just that it happens, that it's problematic and that it should be corrected somehow...

It's not just the simple fact that they kill off women, they just seem to like to kill off the women that are most adept as using their powers, have the best attitude when it comes to their powers (a good majority of the female characters have embraced their powers with absolutely no hesitation), and are just great, fun characters to just have on screen.

Daphne is going to be sorely missed because her character brought a special spark to Heroes - fun. Now we're stuck with brooding Angela (who I adore) and we'll get more episodes of Claire doing absolutely nothing and whining about how she can't feel anything.

I think that women do get a short serving on show. I'd like to see more female Heroes introduced and like it more if they put a lot of development into those characters like they have Sylar, Niki, and Peter. They stick to this comic book archetype with a man makes a good hero and woman makes a good supporting character. It's starting to get a bit old to me. I wouldn't mind seeing a female character even more powerful than Sylar.

We can't even get at MALE character more powerful then Sylar, so I wouldn't hold my breath for a female character.

Maya could have easily taken out Sylar in one fell swoop!

This thread would hold more weight if it wasn't so obvious that Tracy isn't dead. They're setting her up to be one of the strongest characters on the show, so that kinda debunks your whole theory.

Well if they're already doing comic book stereotypes then the Amazonian Women one should be next. You know, like there's some syndicate of chicks hailing from Norway and all they do is go around and rob banks and raise all sorts of anarchy with their collection of special abilities.

It doesn't debunk the original point of this thread which was to point out that they continually give the shaft to the main female characters of the show that aren't Petrelli's.

I mean seriouisly, as of right now the only two females left on the show are Petrelli's. That is sad.

I wonder if the perception (from some folks postin' in this thread) about the various characters' longevity would change much if good ol' Joss got to work his magic for the actresses in the show? He's got some capable female characters with Buffy, Faith, River and Echo...

Anyway, Tracy looks to have a pretty good storyline next season ('cuz it seems, from the question I asked Ali, which you can read in this transcript - with her answer immediately after, at 11:26 and 11:27, she'll have a good part to play), so the initial post must be more of a generalization than a rule.

And what sucks is even when we get strong female characters in the GN they get killed too. Donna Dunlap, Linda Tavera, Hana..it just sucks.

Joss Whedon!

Now that's a guy that knows how to right some great female characters! Buffy, Echo, Cordelia, Willow, Tara, Faith, Anya...

Not that it matters but most of the females have been killed by Sylar

Which ticks me off even more!

I'd include Meredith. Her suppopsed death was because of Sylar and that stupid adrenline he injected into her.

Prue, Piper, Phoebe, Paige...

Who is this 'us' you are talking about in the statement "killing a woman gives us a much higher emotional reaction?" I'd think if Peter were killed the emotional reaction would be off the scale for both men and women who watch. Sylar, HRG, Parkman, or Hiro would cause that sort of an emotional reaction too. Killing off an endless string of women for drama is just pathetic anyway. What is Heroes trying for? Cheap slasher theater? That's why I prefer another explanation- such as production considerations such as actresses having other projects or at least that it is not a conscious trend on the part of the writers, just some psychological remnant playing out in the background of their creativity.

Personally, I think it interesting that Maya is one of few powered females written out and the only adult female one I can think of at the moment. She gave up her power willingly to go forth and redeem herself. Maya's whole storyline reminds me of the sexually disgraced girl getting herself to a convent to repent her forbidden past. Maya is a good girl who doesn't want power, just a simple life- often seen cleaning and cooking etc for men- therefore she gets to live, unlike all the rest of the women on the show most of whom have more complex goals in life and come to love and utilize their nifty power. Maya as the sole exception to the killing of women of power to remove them from the storyline- troubling.



Thanks for sharing your opinion. It is as worthy of being voiced here as any other.

Do you also think the 'darker than Mohinder' argument is bull too? Perhaps you will agree that Heroes used to have a far more diverse cast of characters now peopled mainly by light skinned males. The fact that the younger adult African-American male characters on the show were both incarcerated- troubling. Knox whole power- feeding his strength on the fear he creates in others- troubling. Then there is the fact that Knox, DL, Simone, Charles, Canfield, and Usutu were all killed off the show.

I very much agree with OP. I think it's a cultural thing that white, hetero males are the accepted hero. Some of my favorite scenes have been done by people/teams who break from this: Claire and Zach, Micah and Monica, Elle and Claire. I also believe after seeing: Maya, Canfield, Knox, Donna, Echo and Elle that there's been a tremendous lost opportunity for Heroes by sticking with their stereotypes.

Women in Refrigerators

DL was falsely imprisoned. Maybe you forgot that in your calculations.
Also, in America, (I'll have to look up the actual states to get completely accurate, but I'm not far off with this) something like 60% of the prison population is black. (I will not go with the politicially correct crapfest of calling them African American because, with a rare exception, none of them are from Africa except further back in their family tree than I can trace myself off this continent.)
And they were incarcerated for one simple reason- plot development. It fit the story. From what I've read, DL wasn't written as a black character. The actor came in and was cast because he fit, not because he was black.


Yes, because there's nothing more racist than a man who feeds off fear. (He does not feed off the fear he creates in others. He feeds off fear in general.)


Because anyone of those characters had something to add to the show from that point on. Oh. Wait. They didn't.

Could Heroes have a more diverse cast? Sure. But in a country where the majority of the population is white, it's hard to have a "relevant" show where the majority of the cast is anything but.

As far as killing off more women? The show certainly eliminates a larger percentage of the women, but not in numbers. (The show has mostly involved men since the beginning. And plenty of them have been killed/died/written off since S1. Actually, in pure numbers, more White Men have died on this show than any other race or gender.)

oh wow, i forgot about knox. i miss him

anyway, i hate to be the "token" monica fan on here (i seem to mention her in all my posts lol), but she was the biggest disappointment for me. i admit that her storyline didn't exactly lend itself to long-term/main character status, but her power was so awesome. we never really got to see it evolve, or how she could be an assistant to any of the main storylines, and that was a major disappointment.

however, the character itself didn't have the spunk/sass/badassness that some other characters had. i would definitely like to see more women characters, and mainly ones that aren't romantically or sexually tied to any of the other characters on the show. not to be on some independent-women kick, but i'd definitely appreciate a female character -- whether she gets killed off or not -- that holds her own, helps move the storyline along, and doesn't have some overly dramatic fall from power.

i will say though that tracy has proven to one of the most badass characters on the show. that last scene? and also, her being so closely related to the chapter title, was a huge step and one that is definitely NOT overlooked. i always thought her ice power could turn out to be boring or cheesy, but it was actually pretty awesome.

as for race, i will NOT go there. of course i'd like more ethnic characters and diversity, but not if they are going to be tokens. a well-written in character would be nice, though.

good link!

I counted them up - 37 females, 35 males. That's pretty close to even, and since Tracy isn't dead and will be in plenty of episodes this season and next [links in this thread like the fan interview], I wouldn't say any of it is intentional. that said, if new female characters were introduced I'd still watch. As long as there's still a Heroes to watch, I'm game for pretty much whatever they decide.

Ya know what would be cool, if tptb decide to do it? I think it would be neat to see Taylor Cole's Rachel get more of (at least) a recurrin' role on the show, even though she started out as a character in the HEROES Evolutions content...

I think Heroes depicts women in a sexist way, but I can't blame Heroes. I think they're just telling a story in socially acceptable ways. The writers ask themselves, "What's a good, entertaining story for [female character]" and the answer is invariably to put her in a relationship with a male character or put her in a situation where she needs saving. Once she no longer needs saving or the relationship is no longer interesting, she's got nowhere to go. The writers have to write her out or kill her. Killing the characters is just more interesting and can provide depth to other remaining characters, so that's what they choose.

I think society is more open to different storylines when the central character is male, so those are the characters that get the different storylines.

Is it sexist? Yeah.

Is Heroes more sexist than everyone else in society? No. Not by a long shot.

Yes! They should at least upgrade Taylor Cole to at least recurring or even a new regular for next season instead of just sidelining her to the webisodes and graphic novels.

And if they want to add a touch of ethnic diveristy, upgrade Santiago and Elisa from the webseries to new recurring or regulars. They, especially Santiago, would be nice additions to the show.

You're definitely not alone. I LOVE Monica. I didn't omit her because I didn't like her, but rather because I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, I simply forgot. I immediately got my hopes up that she'll soon be back after seeing Micah! Those two, along with Hiro, I think represent the soul of the show.

I'm also a Monica fan. It kinda looked like her on one of the tables, when Tracy busted Mohinder and Matt out.

wow lol.

people find the weirdest thing to Lady and moan about.

hell im a muslim, give me 1 hero on heroes ... just one hero thats an Arab.

and yet do you see me crying on a message board saying booohoooo a fictitious TV show does not represent my cultural heritage it must be because they are racist and think im a terrorist.

please it's a show people.

None of you here, not even african americans know what it is to be looked upon in fear on a daylie basis.

and yet you still find remote ways to feel offended. for what?

*sigh*

Well that is entirely untrue lol


And, are you suggesting that if someone feels something unfair is going on, they should keep their mouths shut because they aren't the only ones?

What a spirited way to live.

Actually, from the tone of your post, that's exactly how I interpret it.

Now, onto the subject at hand, as a writer I understand part of what's happened. The majority of the writers are White and Male. As such, the majority of their characters are also going to be White and Male. (You write what you know and are comfortable with.)


And, I repeat an earlier statement, as far as the slaughter is concerned, the amount of White Male bodies is larger than the bodies of Black and/or Female.

SuperT,

Pesonally, I think that the Haitian is worthy of inclusion among the men. I noticed that half the men listed (if you include the Haitian) and half the women listed are dead. Oh my...

Creator

What's worse; being an Arab in America, or an American in an Arab country? Try being white and growing up in a black neighborhood.

Ok, for one don't come one to a thread and attempt to talk down to everyone in it for discussing a topic simply because you don't like it. And two don't EVER assume what an entire race of people go through on a daily(not "daylie") basis since you obiviously don't know. Anyone with common sense can tell you that you can't see another person's perspective from your own, or in simpler terms, you can't judge someone unless you walk a mile in their shoes. On this thread we are not just talking about the misrepresentation(or lack thereof) of women in Heroes, but in society as a whole. At least that's what I've gathered from this discussion. So I suggest you try and understand before you judge, friend.

Hello Synch,


No I didn't forget that. I'm sure many of the African-Americans in our prison populations are likewise falsely imprisoned too. White offenders are more likely to get better lawyers, lighter sentences, and/or not see the inside of a prison, too. Mainly white so called white collar criminals might serve their time confined to a penthouse for crimes more devastating to many more innocent victims or may use their political ties to escape prosecution all together. More than a few flee the country. The main problem I have is that 100% of the entire population of young African American adult males on the show were incarcerated. That hardly reflects any part of reality. It does reinforce a stereotype. An aquaintance said that if DL went to jail for a crime he didn't commit- he had probably done something else to deserve it with 'those cool breaking and entering powers.' I'd doubt he was the only viewer who drew that conclusion.



Your choice. I find the term especially useful here to distinguish that group from others such as Usutu and the Haitian who represent completely different cultures and nationalities.



I never said any intentional bigotry was commited by the writers only that the patterns which emerge are troubling.


And you can't for the life of you see how this may be viewed as Heroes playing to racial stereotypes?




Hello? What happened to Usutu's power? Oh yeah, Parkman got it. I've noticed Usutu was nice enough to pop up to tell Parkman how to use it too. And how many episodes has he showed up since? Yep, no use at all. Can I just tell you how much I'd have prefered Usutu coming to New York to keep his job? A mystic from the middle of nowhere in Africa relocated to New York would have been a whole lot more interesting than Parkman or his spirit turtle.

Half the population is female too. Is it hard to have a relevant show without half the cast being female? If heroes wants to remain relevant and revive the ratings it might think about the appeal it had back in the day- with a diverse cast, multinational characters, the whole socio-economic spectrum from starving artist drug addict to the Petrelli Dynasty. Anyone might have had a place at the table in those days. That was kind of nice. By the way how did we go in your mind from the majority of the cast being European-American ( a term I'm sure you'll find fault with) to the majority of the cast being anything but? Do you realize how many new actors they'd have to hire to dwarf the current majority.

I'm not talking about the red shirts which only proves how much they favor white male actors. In numbers and percentage, more major female heroes died than major male heroes. All the African American adult males with powers died. As stated, there were many female characters in the beginning- not all had powers but no one knew who might develope one. They killed- in one episode Cold Snap- two main female characters accounting for exactly half the current female hero population on the show. Surely 50% attrition is excessive by any standard? The male equivalent would be losing three major male heroes in one episode out of Hiro, Ando, Parkman, Nathan, Peter, and Suresh (if Sylar and Noah don't really count,) or four if they do.

I think it's funny how you think the story lines demands the killing of major characters- yet it is the writers who write those storylines. Heroes can hire any type of person they want and can kill any character they want- and Heroes does. I can't help noticing women and minorities don't fair well in the scheme of things. I'm not jumping to conclusions only pointing out prevailing patterns that I feel reflect poorly upon the show.

If you want my opinion, I think Heroes is more socially conscious than many other shows. Are they making history by being on the cutting edge of social change- not so far. They admit to the possibility that women and men regardless of race or nationality may be powerful, though. That right there is an improvement over shows that deny the existence of minorities (don't get me started on what happened to all black male characters [Notice that I agree that 'African-American' is in no way appropriate in this context] when Battlestar Galactica was remade) or offer only weak or ridiculous female characters to begin with like just about every soap I've ever seen. I do think they could do a vastly better job when it comes to social responsibility with minimal change or effort. Sometimes just realizing how the content might be perceived can be the solution. There is nothing quite like the tunnel-vision that can be attained from being involved in a creative group effort.

There are no "penthouses" in the American prison system, despite what you see on TV. We have different security levels, based on the record and likelyhood of violent behavior or escape.

no problem glad that i'm not alone on this one. i also had my hopes way high when i felt/found out micah was rebel. i still won't write her out (even if the writers have) because i'm still waiting to see more of that awesome power.

& i like your comment about the "soul" of the show.



oh really? i'll have to look again. don't get me excited, but it would definitely be awesome to at least see her again. or get one last scene with her doing something crazy/great with her power. (minus the ipod though, we can do without the extra product placement lol)

All people are racially and gender biased... Its a fact of life...


It is impossible for one race to know what will offend or upset other races in writing any story, and equally hard for somwbody of another gender to fully empathize with the opposite gender...


Instead of saying people are wrong for how they feel when they watch tv, why don't you try to sit back and actually listen and try to understand there opinions? If you don't understand or see racial stereotypes or gender issues when you watch, its not because they aren't there, or people play up on them, its that you wouldn't/couldn't see naturally because you have no experience living as another culture/gender... Even if you have 100 Mexican friends, you don't know their daily struggles and what they find offensive as a community, somethings, not the SUBTLE things...


Is Heroes racist or against women? No, but like all shows the show is racially and gender insensitive, it happens. If you don't believe me, white people on the board, how do you guys feel when you watch a Spike Lee movie? I didn't even know they could be offensive to white people until I watched do the right thing with some friends... Its true, we write from our perspective and we write from what we think will make a believable story but we sometimes stick to cliche ideals and idioms about what the world is and the world isn't always seen through the same eyes by all cultures, races, genders, or religions...

Its best to listen and try to be open. I am not a girl but I can see the point women make watching this show so I'd rather listen and learn then try and say their wrong or make a case when I have no idea what offends women. Unless you are a guy that magically taps into the head of women everywhere, read what is being said and try to understand before you reply, same thing about any post on race... Understanding before you post will solve a lot of hard feelings and flames...

Then your issue isn't with the prison system or discrimination, its with the sort of crimes African American males commit compared to the sort of crimes White male men commit. Generally speaking, obviously.

There was a dark skinned female there, but I highly doubt they paid Dana Davis to lie on a bed, unmoving.

You want prevailing patterns?

White politician has a weakness for blondes- any blondes. Can't keep his marriage together.
White male nurse who can't make a good decision to save his life and also seems incomplete if he isn't hopelessly in lust with a random girl of the week.
White cop eating donuts regularly who's a bit stupid and slow and isn't in a good mood unless he's trying to convince a woman of the month she loves him.

All the bad guys have been white males.


According to the same show you're watching that reflects so poorly on women and blacks, somehow, all whites males are dogs sniffing after the nearest skirt, or waiting in line to stab everyone else in the back, or wanting to destroy the world.