As best I can tell, when assistted by Samuel, Lydia can duplicate: Precognition, Postcognition/Clairsentience/Psychometry and Remote Viewing. At least 3 diffferent powers. She can locate anyone, at any time.
(Is it really a surprise that Samuel has the upper hand in his encounters?)

I disagree... Lydia can't see the future, can't locate a person, can't see the history of an object. Lydia's ability is Empathy, which allows her to know how someone feels about a situation, and no, that's not Telepathy (just in case)

And I really don't think Lydia needs Samuel's assistance for using her power. Samuel "injects" ink in her body for materializing the ideas she has about a person, I mean, for seeing the faces. Remember that Lydia told Samuel that "it isn't her" (refering to Claire) "it's someone else" (refering to Sylar), and she wasn't injected with any Ink, and Samuel wasn't watching her tattoos.

How are you getting that? All she's shown is that she can tell you about people you need to know about. Specifically, what they're doing "now" in their personal timeline. (It only makes sense that, when the personal timeline of someone like Hiro crosses the past/future timeline of the Carnival, she'll be able to tell the questioner that as well.)

She hasn't displayed any other powers.

For the record, Psychometry and Clairsentience are the same basic ability. The only difference is that Psychometry is entirely object-based, but Clairsentience can be used on people as well. And she's never shown the slightest hint of either one. (Both require physical contact with the person/object in order to learn the history of it. And she has never done that.)

Postcognition? Knowing what has already happened? The only time they hinted at that was when she said Hiro was 14 years in the carnival's past. However, he had time-hopped there. Thus, although it was the carnival's past, it was Hiro's present. And she was seeing where Hiro was in his present. Thus, she saw him in their past.

Precognition? When has she displayed anything that remotely hints at knowing what's going to happen at some point in the future?

I agree and disagree with ya! She's seen key players in the future of who's asking. She's clearly seen and located them in the distant past. I agree that Samuel's Ink forcs her to "comic-book" what she perieves as natural impressions. Like I said, together, their reach appears limitless..

Which key players has she seen on Samuel's future? If you refer to Claire, Sylar, Peter and/or HRG, she didn't see them in the future, she just saw them in the present, and how they are connected to the Carnival.

She's clearly seem and located them in the distant past? If you refer to Hiro, she could tell that he was there 14 years ago because present Hiro had time-traveled 14 years to the past, and the one who time-traveled was Present Hiro. She just saw what Present Hiro was doing. And I don't think she located him in the Carnival due to a form of clairvoyance ability, I think she saw Hiro's feelings, which were connected to something that happened in the Carnival, and Lydia noticed that, so she assumed he was at the Carnival.

Please reade Synch's post before mine. He explains the whole how-Lydia-found-Hiro-thing better that I did.

"She can show you people you need to know about" -paraphrashed from synch.. Let's see..: That involves: singling out unmet strangers in the near future to display on your back=Precognition. It also goes beyond whatever Isaac or Usutu EVER did and pinpoint specific locations for said targets. It also stretches beyond every instance save the one in "Sam's Comic's" where when the scene was yet to happen. THUS, Lydia with Samuel are the best "Seer's" in the series' history. But good work in being combative once again, synch. I'm sure Lydia's and Samuel's abilities had nothing to do with the foresight of moving/concealing the carnival ahead of time in regards to who and where they needed to be when Gabriel stumbled up.

Well to all fairness to you both, I must say that Lydia doesn't have a direct precognition cause if that would be the case she could had told who will come that night to the carnival instead of asking samuel who it will be.

The other way around, she seems indeed to be able to see or recognize future aspects BUT only when they are connected to a certain person she is thinking about or focusing on at that time.

So it's like a foresight about what is going to happen to this one person she connected with at that moment and not in a overall or general manner like (just an example) the virus plot or the bomb or such things like in angelas or isaac/usutu cases that are real precogs(also in different manners and ways but with the almost same result).

Read the GN with lydia and edgar that involves the crystal ball and you will notice what I mean about lydia being able to see future things.

In my opinion and as I had already posted in the beginning already, she seems to be a real empath (not a mimic like in peters case or absorber like in arthurs/sylars cases) that can connect to/feel a person.

Through this she can gain also the information about who they are and what they are.

She definately has a form of clairsentience(sorry if not typed right x_X) like Molly, but without the need to know the person before(Molly needs a picture so she can focus on a person she doesn't know)

Actually, all it does is show you where those people are now. It doesn't show you where they're going to be in 10 minutes.
Thus: Not precognition.



Well, you can bet Samuel's ability didn't. He moves earth. That's it.

And I never said Lydia's had nothing to do with that. I said it wasn't Pre-or post-cognition. I also said it wasn't clairsentience or psychometry.

I don't deny being combative. Doesn't mean I'm wrong. Listen to, or read, what I'm saying:

Lydia only shows you where the person is now. (Actually, she doesn't even do that. She shows you who you're looking for, and is able to tell you where they are at the moment.)

Use the following, completely fictional, convo:

Synch: Why are you showing me Bob?
Lydia: Because he's who you need to see.
Synch: Where is he?
Lydia: Running from the cops in Tucson.

It doesn't take any kind of genius, especially if her track record's as solid as we're being led to think it is, that I better haul it down to Tucson.

It seems to me that Lydia's power is actually Clairvoyance; Which, according to Wiki, means:

"The alleged ability to gain information about an object, person, location or physical event through means other than the known human senses"

This seems to be exactly what Lydia is doing. Samuel asks her to find new candidates for the carnival, and she homes in on them in present time. Once she has a fix on them, it's as if she becomes aware of not only where they are; but intimate information about their personal lives as well. Such as what their powers are.

Samuel also seemed to know specific details about Hiro and Peter's personalities. It's like he knows what buttons to push. He's probably getting all of this from Lydia as well.

As far as anything Lydia might have done in the graphic novel, I usually just disregard them as not having any real bearing on the show. Since I'm willing to bet that the majority of viewers have never bothered to go to the site and read them.

The few times that I've actually read any of them they seem to be pointless and, in some cases, just silly. In my opinion, if it didn't happen on the show...it didn't happen.

clairvoyance may be a possibility, it's just that lydia's power works a bit different from molly's.

Actually, accept for the tattoo part, Lydia's power works more like true clairvoyance is alleged too. Clairvoyance isn't supposedly just locating people; it's knowing information about them, and the events in their lives, that you shouldn't be able to know.

I know that Molly's power has been described as clairvoyance, but it's an inaccurate description of what she does. She's more like a human divining rod; Only instead of water she finds people.

Lydia can RV. that's it I think..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing

-
What about Samuel tho?
His power is Terrakinesis but whats up with the ink?

According to official descriptions (NBC), Lydia's ability allows her to sense the fears and desires of others, and that's it. She can't see the future, she can't locate a person like Molly does.

As for Samuel's ability, is Terrakinesis. He has obviously evolved his ability, so that he can also control de minerals that the earth have. The ink he uses has those same minerals.

But Lydia can perfectly use her ability without the tattos. She only uses them to show faces, but we've already seen her using Empathy without the ink

It seems to be plausible if Lydia's Advanced Ability is Clairvoyance, the same as Molly Walker but manifested at a higher magnitude, perhaps? For example, Hiro Nakamura manifested Space-Time Manipulation and could do everything, freeze time, slow time, teleport, time travel, etc. whereas Rachel Mills could do limited teleporting. Here, Lydia knows where the person is, their name, fears, etc. whereas Molly only knows where they are and needs to know a name and a physical map to use.

You explained it very well, and I agree with you. The same happened with Matt, who could only read minds at first, but then he could make illusions (like Candice), and give orders (like Eden) and even paint the future (like Isaac and Usutu).

Maybe all abilities start differently, but if they are controlled at 100%, they are all the same. Then, you could divide abilities in Mental (Telepathy, Precognition, Mental Manipulation, Persuation, Clairvoyance, Clairsentience, Enhanced Memory, etc); Empathic (Empathy, Empathic Mimicry, Ability Replication, Power Absorption, etc); Elemental (Pyrokinesis, Freezing, Lightining, Water Mimicry, Terrakinesis, Weather Control, etc); Biological (Rapid Cell Regeneration, Healing, Plant Manipulation, Adoptive Muscle Memory, Cloning, Enhanced Strenght, Enhanced Speed, Enhanced Hearin, etc)... And so on. But every mental ability, evolving at 100%, would be the same, making the user capable of using Telepathy, Persuasion, Clarivoyance, Mental Manipulation, Precognition, etc. And the same with the Biological and Elemental and Empathic, etc...

Thanks. I agree, if you look at Matt Parkman, Maury Parkman, and Charles Deveaux in particular to see the different powers they used under the label of Telepathy.

Matt: Mind Reading, Mind Control, Telepathic Binding, Illusion Casting, Precognition, Dream Telepathy, and Memory Manipulation

Maury: Mind Reading, Mind Control, Telepathic Binding, Illusion Casting, and Dream Telepathy

Charles: Mind Reading, Mind Control, and Precognitive Dreaming (Speculation on my part, not sure if it was confirmed)

Kind of like it - and would connect it to the ability being affected by the personality of the user, ie Arthur being selfish and aggressive, and being able to strip powers; Sylar being sociopathic, unable to connect, and has to analyze and hardwire; Peter being open and loving the first time with EM, more paranoid the second time around with Replication.

Heres one to debate - would Telekenesis be in the same category as Mental Manipulation, controlling things with your mind? In a lot of past comics and fiction, Telepathy and Telekenesis are connected. Or do you think Telekinesis would be lumped with cryokenesis, pyrokinesis, etc, by manipulating matter at an subatomic level or something? Is this the same category Flight is in?

In most comics I've encountered, most notably in the Marvel multi-verse, Telepathy and Telekinesis are separate powers. (Frequently you'll see a character with one or the other, but not both.) However, they both fall under a larger heading which is Psionic Powers. Those characters capable of both Telepathy and Telekinesis are rated as Alpha Psis. (Some literature, notably the Witch World series written by Andre Norton, calls them ESPers- pronounced Eh-spurs.)

Theoretically, Parkman could reach this level. As far as the story is concerned, I highly doubt it.

Although high-level Telekinetics are capable of a form of flight, I don't see flight itself as under that heading. It's not truly a mental manipulation of any sort. It's a purely physical ability, along the lines of regeneration.

Something else to consider is that the various forms frequently show Cryogenesis (more frequently Hydrogenesis) as well as the other purely elemental abilities such as Electrogenesis and Pyrogenesis as related but antithetical. (Basically, they all fall under the blanket of Elemental Powers, but will almost never coincide in the same person.)
Note: The -genesis suffix is different from, more powerful than, but includes the -kinesis suffix. (A Hydrokinetic merely manipulates water. They can't create it. A Hyrdrogenetic, on the other hand, is not only capable of manipulating it but also creates it.)

Precognition is a unique ability, typically, but has been shown to be accessible to an Alpha-psi. (Thus the reason I believe Parkman capable of utilizing Telekinesis, even though I doubt it will happen.)

Another thing to consider is what are frequently referred to as Omegas. These, extraordinarily rare, people seem to have access to every Set and Subset of abilities. (They typically use only a handful of the abilities available to them, but those abilities also tend to fall under every Set.)

The Sets of abilities I'm aware of, which may be far from complete, are Psionic, Elemental, Force, Mimicry and Cognition. (The Cognition set is comprised of Pre- and Post-cognition as well as Clairsentience and various abilities along those lines.)

Sorry for the longwinded post..lol

I'd say, Telekinesis and Mental Manipulation goes under Cerebral. Cryokinesis and Pyrokinesis are Elemental. Flight is a tough one, it could be argued to be Biological, Cerebral, or even Spatial (by the way, if you haven't followed it, there was a feature online a year ago called Primatech Assignment Tracker where the Company had files on people with powers and every so often, we'd get a new one. Link here to explain it: Assignment Tracker 2.0 and one of the things they listed was the category of power [4-5 total: Cerebral, Elemental, Biological, Temporal/Spatial, and Physiological [for Eric Doyle, even though I still consider his Cerebral]).

I didn't know about this, but I was making a little search and I found something really interesting. In the Heroes Universe, the abilities had been categorized by two different entities: The Company and Dr. Suresh.

The Company divides them in:
Biological: Interactions with the body
Cerebral: Interactions with the brain
Elemental: Interactions with energy and the elements
Temporal/Spatial: Interactions with matter
Click here to see the whole list of abilities listed under each category by The Company

Dr. Suresh divides them in:
Enhanced Human Capabilities: Mental
Enhanced Human Capabilities: Physical
Manipulation of atoms and matter
Manipulation of nature and the traditional elements
Manipulation of waves
Click here to see the whole list of abilities listed under each category by The Company

First off, all the talk about categories made me remiss not to try and hock my own thread..!My "powers" chart
I listed Lydia in three different columns, in two seperate bubbles. To me, she clearly sees at least the immediate future in regards to whomever she's "seeing' for, like a fortune teller. Samuel had no idea who Hiro Nakamura was, and she had to tell him everything. The same is presumably true for Sylar, Tracy and Peter's likenesses as well. (Noah, I can understand Samuel knowing about, as he's been actively hunting specials for 20+ years and would be known in the community.) But anyway, since none of those people had YET crossed Samuel's past, she was seeing people that soon would. Those visions are then manifested (with Samuel's power helping) as Precognitive Art. Secondly, She clearly has Clairvoyance, locating her subjects' pinpoint whereabouts, enough to let Samuel know exactly where Peter worked and lived, not to mention which stretch of wilderness Sylar was running through. Finally, she seems to have Clairsentience in regards to her subjects. She can tell their names, what power(s) they have, and even track them back into the past as in Hiro's case. She isn't the only hero to display powers in different bubbles on my chart, and it's unclear how much of that crossing-over requires Samuel's help, but I stand by my statement that the two of them are the most powerful "seers" we've seen!

I think none of us said that wasn't possible that Lydia has different abilities, and saying that would be hypocrit since we all recognized that Matt developed Persuation, Precognition, Illusion, and so on. Just like the Haitian, who can block abilities but also erase people's minds. However, what we do say (or at least I say) is that we don't know for certain if Lydia manifested Clairvoyance or Precognition or any other ability apart from Empathy. Yes, it is totally plausible, but is it a fact? Up to now, we have arguments for explaining that Lydia may be using only Empathy and nothing else. She doesn't find people's location, she just know about them, and thanks to that, she can deduct where they might be. For example, she knows that Peter is someone who loves saving people, and he has knowledge of medicine, so, she thinks he might be a paramedic, and then Samuel just looks for a registry of paramedics until he finds Peter's name, and he goes to meet him. OR, maybe there's a carnie with the ability of Clairvoyance, and that simplifies it all...
Precognition? I don't think so. Knowing how someone is feeling right now, and from that, deducting what they might be doing or when are they going to meet, is not precognition at all, it's just empathy.

As for how she knew that Hiro was there 14 years ago, I remember me and Synch explaining that Hiro teleported 14 years to the past, so, she wasn't seeing the past or locating him, she was just seeing his present, and Present Hiro was 14 years in the past.

First off, I want to know where the term "empath' in regards to her ability started. I vaguely remember her (the actress) saying it during the comic con panel, so are all of you just going off that and only that? Her ability is so far removed from Peter's as be laughable as being labeled the same thing. Your argument for saying she can't locate people is a bit weak in my opinion, much more than your argument that she can't tell the future. I agree, we don't know how much knowledge Samuel accumulated about Peter, Sylar and Claire before they appeared on her back, but we actually witnessed her introducing him to Hiro. As for her not seeing the past, I think it's important to remember her words. She said "He was here." Past tense. It had already happened inside the carnival. Not: "Right now he's currently back in time". She made it clear it was in tthe past, yet she still saw it.

We're not saying what she does has anything to do with what Peter used to do.
Peter's ability was Empathic Mimicry.
What she does is, for lack of a better term, Empathic Clairvoyance.
She can tell where someone is and, to a lesser extent, what they're doing, because of their emotions.


Naturally that's the way she said it. How else would you say it?

The point remains that she saw Hiro, in his present timeline, in their past. She wasn't looking back in time, although that was a side effect. She was tracking Hiro. Nothing more.

If she ever does that with someone/something else, I'll admit she has post-cognition. As of right now, the simplest answer is that she was simply following Hiro.

Ok, I'm trying to think of a compromise here, some way to explain Lydia's ability without making her into a 2nd Haitian with multiple powers.. Remember the arguments after 5YG about Candice's Illusions fooling cameras? We realized it wasn't as issue as long as her influence was worldwide. That is the difference between her and Parkman, who can only trick the people within a room or so. What if Lydia has the same ability as Molly Walker, only hers is pushed to the ultimate? Molly gets a picture and can locate someone and even see visuals including the door of their apartment and is vulnerable to Maury's power. Lydia can get only a basic description of the person's power "Find me an Empath", or "we need a Time Traveller" and produce the likeness and location of them. That still doesn't explain how she showed Sylar's face when it was clearly Nathlar in that body at the time, and it doesn't explain why Edgar would deliver a cello to Emma, unless you honestly expect to argue that Samuel requested someone with whatever her ability is.. It's clear to me that she is seeing near-future intersecting roads. This is confirmed by her GN, where her first vision was of a baby. Do you honestly expect me to swallow that between panels Samual had asked about a Regenerative baby or did Lydia see someone important to her own future? Jeez...

Yes, in the GN she saw a baby.

Gee...would that by any chance be Amanda? You know, the exploding girl that is Lydia's daughter?

Lydia has never shown anybody something that is going to happen in the future. She has shown people who they wanted to see and, more importantly, she pinpoints where they are now.

Correct, Dr. Sarcastic. It WAS Amanda. The child who wasn't born yet. That was my entire point. She didn't see Claire, who most likely HAD been born at that point, she predictively envisioned a person who would be important to her. Good job being combative though.

Yes. Most of us agreed this was so in this thread or one of the other 4.05 threads.



In the GN, 14 years ago, it was implied that when she manifested, while messing with the fortune teller's prop crystal ball, she was thinking about how she abandoned her daughter, Amanda. Then for lack of understanding nor control of her power, the notion of an abandoned child influenced what Lydia saw, which happened to be infant Claire in the Kermit fire, which probably happened at the same time, instead of Amanda. My theory anyway but it could Amanda, too. But it sort of detracts from how we saw Matt Jr. as the first infant to manifest.

Right and wrong.

Lydia left Amanda at her sister's before she joined the Carnival.

You got that from a linkable source you'd care to share? Even if so, that first manifestation doesn't explain her seeing people that neither she nor Samuel have ever met before. Oh, and by the way, I think you're smelly. (see, I'm like, combative too!)

Umm..how about from the GN you were quoting as well as the interactive story we're getting on the show.

Lydia's been with the Carnival since some point prior to that GN.

She left Amanda with her sister prior to that.

And I'm combative about debates. I've yet to stoop so low as to actually issue a personal attack of any kind, even humorously. Please do me the same courtesy.

Synch, I sincerely and publicly apologize for typing that I think you are "smelly". I do NOT think that you are smelly. I have no way of knowing that. We have never met. Nor do I support the: "WTF?! What a hypocrite! He dishes out but can't take it!" slanderous echoes that I hear faintly bouncing off the walls of the wireless tavern I'm in.
So let's get back to it, hurt feeling aside: Is Lydia capable of foreseeing someone that will come in contact with whoever she's scrying for, even if they're unknown?

*eyeroll*
Dishes it but can't take it? I don't dish personal attacks. I attack theories and assumptions, not members. Now, moving on to something actually worth talking about.

She's never shown the slightest trace of precognitive skill.

She has never shown/told where someone is going to be. Just where they are.

In fact, she has never displayed anything outside of Empathic Clairsentience, which translates through whichever motive medium she has physical contact with.

(Empathic connection means she knows what Samuel needs and is able to find it, at which point she tells them who and where they are.)


ETA:

Actually, you don't even need to go that drastically. She knows what Samuel is looking for regarding additions to the Family. She tracks them down and plays show & tell.

She can Telepathically infer what Samual wants? Even if-or-when his description is vague? And still produce pinpoint results? I'm glad I have never used the term "idiotic or moron" in a reply to someone's 9th's Wonder's post, otherwise they might have had their feelings hurt. Otherwise they might have masked the defenseless attack of their stated position under the cover of a faux mental-injury. I'm glad I haven't done that, or I would feel like the pot who calls the kettle black.

And yet you don't deal with the part of the post that actually matters.

She knows what he's looking for. There are specific spots he needs filled now, or will in the near future. (Just a quick look at their chronokinetic tells you he's dying. They're going to need a replacement.)

She uses her ability to find them. And, as her specific ability works, shows him faces through skin contact (or under-skin contact as the case may be) with a manipulable medium.

Now, do you mind actually dealing with what I'm discussing, or do you feel like throwing a few more veiled insults my way? Either way works for me. I'll just need some warning when you're ready to say something of substance again.

No dude, I'm right there with ya, let's figure this out! Let's first examine the tattoos on her back involving Peter, Sylar and Claire. Did they all, each and every one, have prior dealings with the carnival before Samuel's "Seeing", or did she foresee they were "Important Players"?

It doesn't seem like she has precognition. She didn't know about Sylar until he was literally on the run. In fact, she seemed to be doubting Samuel's belief that someone was coming. That would make sense if she could only feel them in the present time.

Also, Edgar told Samuel he met an empath before Lydia showed Peter on her back.

They need an empath. She sees Peter and Sylar.
They need a chronokinetic. She sees Hiro.
They need a healer. She sees Claire.

Like I said, she went looking for the powers the carnival needed

For talking of something else apart Lydia's ability and her limits... Am I the only one who thinks that Edgar and Lydia will end up running away from the Carnival together? I think there are stong feelings beteween these two. In addition, it's obvious that Edgar isn't cormfortable with Samuel's leadership, and Lydia doesn't seem at ease with him either... Edgar could be a good father for Amanda ^^

Matt and Maury can't cast illusions by any means.

What they are doing are creating hallucinatory visions in your mind which are different to illusion casting. Since I don't wanna restart another "yes they can, yes they can't" here you can also read this topic in which we discussed about it previously: http://boards.9thwonders.com/index.php?showtopic=69710

As about Charles, he never indicated Precog Dreaming.
What peter showcased was Angelas ability (as already confirmed by the writers ).



- She also showed to edgar her and him kissing in the future without even knowing it so I guess with a greater control later she might be able to see more future images.

Umm..we have no way of indicating that was her ability since she no longer held the crystal ball when he saw that image.

That was, more than likely, the "hag's" ability, actually. Not to show the future, but to show people what they want to see.

Duly noted. I agree, I didn't have proper names cooked up so I just listed what I could, since the writers went to a great deal to explain how Candice can bend light somehow so I don't think it was the same at all (Hermekinesis). Induced Hallucinations sounds interesting. So it seems like there are several variations of 'illusion-based' powers.

I was going by what I remembered about Professor Xavier comic book history. Mmm, Mind Bolts and Astral Projection...But anyway, just explaining where I'm coming from. I should have done that at the start.

Yes, I was only speculating as indicated in ( ).

I'm typically one of those that believes Telepathy is the 'ultimate' Cerebral ability and can encompass every other Cerebral power seen on the show if the person has mastered telepathy.

The idea that her ability is keyed in on specific powers, that she can show whomever has a certain power Samuel asks about is wrong. If it isn't, we should figure out who Samuel was asking after when she showed him HRG, seeing as how they must have the same ability. That also wouldn't explain why the image would be blurred and indistinct at one point, but then clear a while later. I say she is like a living String Theory. She can see important, relevant players and pinpoint them in the moment they set on whatever path. The same way the entire purpose of F_Hiro's research and mess in the Loft was to pinpoint a specific time and place (the subway), Lydia does the same thing in seconds with her ability. That explains why she showed HRG. He had just that moment, after the visit from Peter and Claire decided to get 'back in the business". It also explains why Sylar's image was blurred at first. He wasn't approachable when he was in police custody, and it was only after he made the descision NOT to turn himself in, but to run, and was alone in the woods that he was 'approachable". Therefore, that's when and where he was pinpointed by her ability. Same with Hiro. The trip to the past, facing his own personal test of non-interference was the best moment to be manipulated by Samuel. Living String Theory, that's my take.*edit* I forgot to add my thoughts on Samuel. His claims about the earth telling him something was coming confused me. The only thing I can think of is that we have no way of knowing what abilities Sylar got during his Building 26 missions, so maybe his body unconsciously manifested something while escaping from the grave that resonated with Samuel, far away.